How many of you believe that Stockfish 12 or Komodo can give a rook Odds to a 1450 engine ?

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MonteCarlo
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Re: How many of you believe that Stockfish 12 or Komodo can give a rook Odds to a 1450 engine ?

Post by MonteCarlo » Wed Feb 17, 2021 1:56 pm

Stash 27.0 is over 3000 on CCRL blitz, so being stronger than MVL at anything, much less playing the superior side in odds, is not surprising.

Top humans were much inferior to engines in faster time controls well before engines reached the level of today's 3000 CCRL blitz.

Cheers!

Chessqueen
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Re: How many of you believe that Stockfish 12 or Komodo can give a rook Odds to a 1450 engine ?

Post by Chessqueen » Wed Feb 17, 2021 2:34 pm

MonteCarlo wrote:
Wed Feb 17, 2021 1:56 pm
Stash 27.0 is over 3000 on CCRL blitz, so being stronger than MVL at anything, much less playing the superior side in odds, is not surprising.

Top humans were much inferior to engines in faster time controls well before engines reached the level of today's 3000 CCRL blitz.

Cheers!
I know but GM Nakamura and MVL are over 3100 in Blitz, here is with a different2 pawns Odds, here is a game versus GM Nakamura with the b2 and g2 pawns Odds or missing :roll:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=79slgAB ... esschannel


MonteCarlo
Posts: 146
Joined: Sun Dec 25, 2016 3:59 pm

Re: How many of you believe that Stockfish 12 or Komodo can give a rook Odds to a 1450 engine ?

Post by MonteCarlo » Wed Feb 17, 2021 2:49 pm

3100 blitz for a human on some online site is not stronger than a 3000 CCRL blitz engine just because the absolute number is higher.

The absolute numbers from different rating systems with different player pools are not directly comparable.

Top humans like Naka or MVL would likely lose by very large margins in blitz to most engines that are around 3000 CCRL blitz; their high chess.com ratings would not save them.

Stash 27.0 is still much weaker than Komodo, so I'm sure it will lose games even with some large-ish odds.

My only point was that Stash 27.0 performing better than MVL at some chess task isn't all that surprising (mostly responding to the "WOW" in your post about that). :D

Cheers!

Chessqueen
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Re: How many of you believe that Stockfish 12 or Komodo can give a rook Odds to a 1450 engine ?

Post by Chessqueen » Wed Feb 17, 2021 3:33 pm

jefk wrote:
Wed Feb 17, 2021 1:56 pm
Cq, one game isn't enough to say one engine is stronger,
further more 2.e5 wasn't a good (book?) move against the Scandinavian,
maybe it was in Kom's book with 3 pct chance or so dunno.

Once we have Stash Nnue we'll see again :)

talking about computer chess nostalgia like Socrates, i've once
been an operator for this engine in a single game, in The Hague during
one of the Aegon comp-vs (grand)master events (slow time controls).
Didn't know much about chess during that time, but remember it,
my opponent writer /chess player Tim Krabbe managed to lose
with a Petroff defense, his site still is here:
https://timkr.home.xs4all.nl/chess/chess.html
So yes, Socrates then started with 1.e4 (during that time had no idea
who (the late) Don Daily or Larry Kaufman were, btw)
:)
I was NOT talking about Stash NNUE, but here is another game, and here is the game that GM Nakamura lost with two pawns Odds.I do NOT believe that Stockfish can beat Stash 27.0 with the same Odds that I posted previously
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=79slgAB ... esschannel


Chessqueen
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Re: How many of you believe that Stockfish 12 or Komodo can give a rook Odds to a 1450 engine ?

Post by Chessqueen » Wed Feb 17, 2021 4:38 pm


Chessqueen
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Re: How many of you believe that Stockfish 12 or Komodo can give a rook Odds to a 1450 engine ?

Post by Chessqueen » Sat Feb 20, 2021 5:01 pm

At least Stockfish 13 does NOT lose as bad as Stockfish 12 like in the previous game :roll:


lkaufman
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Re: How many of you believe that Stockfish 12 or Komodo can give a rook Odds to a 1450 engine ?

Post by lkaufman » Sat Feb 20, 2021 6:55 pm

Chessqueen wrote:
Sat Feb 20, 2021 5:01 pm
At least Stockfish 13 does NOT lose as bad as Stockfish 12 like in the previous game :roll:

I believe that SF 13 will use NNUE at knight odds or less, whereas for SF 12 it was only at 2 pawn odds or less that NNUE kicked in at the start. So now it's valid to compare SF 13 and Dragon in terms of which can give knight odds to some weaker but still very strong (in human terms) engine.
Komodo rules!

jefk
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Re: How many of you believe that Stockfish 12 or Komodo can give a rook Odds to a 1450 engine ?

Post by jefk » Sun Feb 21, 2021 12:36 pm

LK
So now it's valid to compare SF 13 and Dragon in terms of which can give knight odds to some weaker but still very strong (in human terms) engine.
yep, and apparently it's (still?) hard for Dragon (or SFnnue) to play
with knight odds against the weaker engine, even with the c7 pawn less
(probably due to a method of exchanging as much as possible and
winning the endgame). Maybe it would be more equal with another
pawn removed, the f7 pawn, or otherwise two pawns, maybe c7
and b7. If this wouldn''t work, an exchange handicap plus a pawn
handicap may be an idea, so e.g Dragon without a1 rook,
Stash without b8 or c8, and Dragon also without b2 or c2.
As for rating ratio, i suppose it's somewhere between 1.1 and 1.2 ,
(for Stash more near 1.2 i suppose).

For rating ratio's between 1.2 and 1.3, the knight handicap may
work (or possibly also one pawn less, eg. b7)

Just a few games are not much to be sure enough...

As for checking the value of the handicap for the initial position,
whereby one pawn in eval should be approx 200 Elo or so,
when i load Dragon without b1 and Black without c7, i get
around minus 3.5 p eval, so this would be 700 or so.
Which confirms it's still a large handicap. Removing f7 gives
minus 3,1 and when i also remove a7, i get minus 2.5,
so the latter may be a better solution for top-engine vs
the Stash type, and i don't have to look at combination(s)
with exchanges (yet); possibly (later) for larger rating ratio's.

(i'll later check with SFNnue, and/or KomodoMcts.

Playing around with such values i'll be able to produce a table
with suggested handicaps for different classes or ration ratio's.

For those who don't like variants or handicap's, setting up handicap
positions (eg. rook vs pawn plus one move or so) was already available
in my old fritzGui version 11, but not with suggested corresponding
rating ratios. Not such a big innovation, but with the willingness of
some Gm's to play against a top engine as Dragon (only) with a handicap
for Dragon, some more structure seems desirable; also possibly for
play at much lower rating levels, eg. home players vs club players,
as i earlier suggested. No big deal is it.
jefk

Chessqueen
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Re: How many of you believe that Stockfish 12 or Komodo can give a rook Odds to a 1450 engine ?

Post by Chessqueen » Sun Feb 21, 2021 2:53 pm

jefk wrote:
Sun Feb 21, 2021 12:36 pm
LK
So now it's valid to compare SF 13 and Dragon in terms of which can give knight odds to some weaker but still very strong (in human terms) engine.
yep, and apparently it's (still?) hard for Dragon (or SFnnue) to play
with knight odds against the weaker engine, even with the c7 pawn less
(probably due to a method of exchanging as much as possible and
winning the endgame). Maybe it would be more equal with another
pawn removed, the f7 pawn, or otherwise two pawns, maybe c7
and b7. If this wouldn''t work, an exchange handicap plus a pawn
handicap may be an idea, so e.g Dragon without a1 rook,
Stash without b8 or c8, and Dragon also without b2 or c2.
As for rating ratio, i suppose it's somewhere between 1.1 and 1.2 ,
(for Stash more near 1.2 i suppose).

You missed my post a few days ago where Komodo version 13.3 NOT the latest Dragon which is two newer version beat Stash 27.0, but against a GM Human like Nakamura rated around 3100 in Blitz, Dragon needs to play Bullets games since in time control of 5'+2" Naka could possibly beat Dragon with a Knight Odds. :roll:


lkaufman
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Re: How many of you believe that Stockfish 12 or Komodo can give a rook Odds to a 1450 engine ?

Post by lkaufman » Sun Feb 21, 2021 5:49 pm

Chessqueen wrote:
Sun Feb 21, 2021 2:53 pm
jefk wrote:
Sun Feb 21, 2021 12:36 pm
LK
So now it's valid to compare SF 13 and Dragon in terms of which can give knight odds to some weaker but still very strong (in human terms) engine.
yep, and apparently it's (still?) hard for Dragon (or SFnnue) to play
with knight odds against the weaker engine, even with the c7 pawn less
(probably due to a method of exchanging as much as possible and
winning the endgame). Maybe it would be more equal with another
pawn removed, the f7 pawn, or otherwise two pawns, maybe c7
and b7. If this wouldn''t work, an exchange handicap plus a pawn
handicap may be an idea, so e.g Dragon without a1 rook,
Stash without b8 or c8, and Dragon also without b2 or c2.
As for rating ratio, i suppose it's somewhere between 1.1 and 1.2 ,
(for Stash more near 1.2 i suppose).

You missed my post a few days ago where Komodo version 13.3 NOT the latest Dragon which is two newer version beat Stash 27.0, but against a GM Human like Nakamura rated around 3100 in Blitz, Dragon needs to play Bullets games since in time control of 5'+2" Naka could possibly beat Dragon with a Knight Odds. :roll:

The key point seems to be that knight odds should be thought of as four pawn odds, roughly double the two pawn handicap. Even knight for pawn is a three pawn handicap. Also based on some research I did a while ago, an engine rated CCRL blitz 3000 would probably score more than 95% against Nakamura in blitz or even in fast Rapid; I think I concluded that Nakamura would only get something like 2200 or so if he played under CCRL blitz conditions with the engines. It is not reasonable to expect any engine to give knight odds or even knight for pawn to a player 800 elo stronger than Nakamura in blitz.
Komodo rules!

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