How many of you believe that Stockfish 12 or Komodo can give a rook Odds to a 1450 engine ?

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Chessqueen
Posts: 1440
Joined: Wed Sep 05, 2018 12:16 am
Full name: George Pichard

Re: How many of you believe that Stockfish 12 or Komodo can give a rook Odds to a 1450 engine ?

Post by Chessqueen » Sun Feb 21, 2021 6:16 pm

lkaufman wrote:
Sun Feb 21, 2021 5:49 pm
Chessqueen wrote:
Sun Feb 21, 2021 2:53 pm
jefk wrote:
Sun Feb 21, 2021 12:36 pm
LK
So now it's valid to compare SF 13 and Dragon in terms of which can give knight odds to some weaker but still very strong (in human terms) engine.
yep, and apparently it's (still?) hard for Dragon (or SFnnue) to play
with knight odds against the weaker engine, even with the c7 pawn less
(probably due to a method of exchanging as much as possible and
winning the endgame). Maybe it would be more equal with another
pawn removed, the f7 pawn, or otherwise two pawns, maybe c7
and b7. If this wouldn''t work, an exchange handicap plus a pawn
handicap may be an idea, so e.g Dragon without a1 rook,
Stash without b8 or c8, and Dragon also without b2 or c2.
As for rating ratio, i suppose it's somewhere between 1.1 and 1.2 ,
(for Stash more near 1.2 i suppose).

You missed my post a few days ago where Komodo version 13.3 NOT the latest Dragon which is two newer version beat Stash 27.0, but against a GM Human like Nakamura rated around 3100 in Blitz, Dragon needs to play Bullets games since in time control of 5'+2" Naka could possibly beat Dragon with a Knight Odds. :roll:

The key point seems to be that knight odds should be thought of as four pawn odds, roughly double the two pawn handicap. Even knight for pawn is a three pawn handicap. Also based on some research I did a while ago, an engine rated CCRL blitz 3000 would probably score more than 95% against Nakamura in blitz or even in fast Rapid; I think I concluded that Nakamura would only get something like 2200 or so if he played under CCRL blitz conditions with the engines. It is not reasonable to expect any engine to give knight odds or even knight for pawn to a player 800 elo stronger than Nakamura in blitz.
Thanks for the explanation, Now I have a question if you play versus Dragon Knight Odds at 5'+1" and lose or draw, then we can assume that GM Nakamura at Bullet chess 1 minutes can probably draw against Dragon. Can you please play a few games at 5'+1" Knight Odds and post it here :roll:

Chessqueen
Posts: 1440
Joined: Wed Sep 05, 2018 12:16 am
Full name: George Pichard

Re: How many of you believe that Stockfish 12 or Komodo can give a rook Odds to a 1450 engine ?

Post by Chessqueen » Sun Feb 21, 2021 11:04 pm

Chessqueen wrote:
Sun Feb 21, 2021 6:16 pm
lkaufman wrote:
Sun Feb 21, 2021 5:49 pm
Chessqueen wrote:
Sun Feb 21, 2021 2:53 pm
jefk wrote:
Sun Feb 21, 2021 12:36 pm
LK
So now it's valid to compare SF 13 and Dragon in terms of which can give knight odds to some weaker but still very strong (in human terms) engine.
yep, and apparently it's (still?) hard for Dragon (or SFnnue) to play
with knight odds against the weaker engine, even with the c7 pawn less
(probably due to a method of exchanging as much as possible and
winning the endgame). Maybe it would be more equal with another
pawn removed, the f7 pawn, or otherwise two pawns, maybe c7
and b7. If this wouldn''t work, an exchange handicap plus a pawn
handicap may be an idea, so e.g Dragon without a1 rook,
Stash without b8 or c8, and Dragon also without b2 or c2.
As for rating ratio, i suppose it's somewhere between 1.1 and 1.2 ,
(for Stash more near 1.2 i suppose).

You missed my post a few days ago where Komodo version 13.3 NOT the latest Dragon which is two newer version beat Stash 27.0, but against a GM Human like Nakamura rated around 3100 in Blitz, Dragon needs to play Bullets games since in time control of 5'+2" Naka could possibly beat Dragon with a Knight Odds. :roll:

The key point seems to be that knight odds should be thought of as four pawn odds, roughly double the two pawn handicap. Even knight for pawn is a three pawn handicap. Also based on some research I did a while ago, an engine rated CCRL blitz 3000 would probably score more than 95% against Nakamura in blitz or even in fast Rapid; I think I concluded that Nakamura would only get something like 2200 or so if he played under CCRL blitz conditions with the engines. It is not reasonable to expect any engine to give knight odds or even knight for pawn to a player 800 elo stronger than Nakamura in blitz.
Thanks for the explanation, Now I have a question if you play versus Dragon Knight Odds at 5'+1" and lose or draw, then we can assume that GM Nakamura at Bullet chess 1 minutes can probably draw against Dragon. Can you please play a few games at 5'+1" Knight Odds and post it here :roll:
Even at TC 2'+1" I believe that Komodo can still beat GM Nakamura. I Just found these games where Stockfish back in 2015 gave GM Wesley So a Knight Odds in Bullet and it beat him the 1st 2 games and it only drew the 3rd game, but of course GM Nakamura is much better than GM SO at Bullet https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xu-pSaN ... el=KchessK

lkaufman
Posts: 4524
Joined: Sun Jan 10, 2010 5:15 am
Location: Maryland USA
Contact:

Re: How many of you believe that Stockfish 12 or Komodo can give a rook Odds to a 1450 engine ?

Post by lkaufman » Mon Feb 22, 2021 3:25 am

Chessqueen wrote:
Sun Feb 21, 2021 6:16 pm
lkaufman wrote:
Sun Feb 21, 2021 5:49 pm
Chessqueen wrote:
Sun Feb 21, 2021 2:53 pm
jefk wrote:
Sun Feb 21, 2021 12:36 pm
LK
So now it's valid to compare SF 13 and Dragon in terms of which can give knight odds to some weaker but still very strong (in human terms) engine.
yep, and apparently it's (still?) hard for Dragon (or SFnnue) to play
with knight odds against the weaker engine, even with the c7 pawn less
(probably due to a method of exchanging as much as possible and
winning the endgame). Maybe it would be more equal with another
pawn removed, the f7 pawn, or otherwise two pawns, maybe c7
and b7. If this wouldn''t work, an exchange handicap plus a pawn
handicap may be an idea, so e.g Dragon without a1 rook,
Stash without b8 or c8, and Dragon also without b2 or c2.
As for rating ratio, i suppose it's somewhere between 1.1 and 1.2 ,
(for Stash more near 1.2 i suppose).

You missed my post a few days ago where Komodo version 13.3 NOT the latest Dragon which is two newer version beat Stash 27.0, but against a GM Human like Nakamura rated around 3100 in Blitz, Dragon needs to play Bullets games since in time control of 5'+2" Naka could possibly beat Dragon with a Knight Odds. :roll:

The key point seems to be that knight odds should be thought of as four pawn odds, roughly double the two pawn handicap. Even knight for pawn is a three pawn handicap. Also based on some research I did a while ago, an engine rated CCRL blitz 3000 would probably score more than 95% against Nakamura in blitz or even in fast Rapid; I think I concluded that Nakamura would only get something like 2200 or so if he played under CCRL blitz conditions with the engines. It is not reasonable to expect any engine to give knight odds or even knight for pawn to a player 800 elo stronger than Nakamura in blitz.
Thanks for the explanation, Now I have a question if you play versus Dragon Knight Odds at 5'+1" and lose or draw, then we can assume that GM Nakamura at Bullet chess 1 minutes can probably draw against Dragon. Can you please play a few games at 5'+1" Knight Odds and post it here :roll:
I've played enough blitz at knight odds with Dragon to say that 5' + 1" is just too fast for me. I might get some draws, but rarely a win. At 5' +5" I'm still the underdog, at 10' + 5" it's quite balanced. At age 73 my poor vision, reaction time, and mouse skills aren't compatible with a one second increment. With one minute and no increment Naka can get draws with Dragon at knight odds if that is his goal because Dragon will generally allow repetition when a piece down (regardless of Contempt setting), but I think he would generally lose on time before actually checkmating Dragon. But with 1' +1" he should gave good chances to win a match.
Komodo rules!

lkaufman
Posts: 4524
Joined: Sun Jan 10, 2010 5:15 am
Location: Maryland USA
Contact:

Re: How many of you believe that Stockfish 12 or Komodo can give a rook Odds to a 1450 engine ?

Post by lkaufman » Mon Feb 22, 2021 3:27 am

Chessqueen wrote:
Sun Feb 21, 2021 11:04 pm
Chessqueen wrote:
Sun Feb 21, 2021 6:16 pm
lkaufman wrote:
Sun Feb 21, 2021 5:49 pm
Chessqueen wrote:
Sun Feb 21, 2021 2:53 pm
jefk wrote:
Sun Feb 21, 2021 12:36 pm
LK
So now it's valid to compare SF 13 and Dragon in terms of which can give knight odds to some weaker but still very strong (in human terms) engine.
yep, and apparently it's (still?) hard for Dragon (or SFnnue) to play
with knight odds against the weaker engine, even with the c7 pawn less
(probably due to a method of exchanging as much as possible and
winning the endgame). Maybe it would be more equal with another
pawn removed, the f7 pawn, or otherwise two pawns, maybe c7
and b7. If this wouldn''t work, an exchange handicap plus a pawn
handicap may be an idea, so e.g Dragon without a1 rook,
Stash without b8 or c8, and Dragon also without b2 or c2.
As for rating ratio, i suppose it's somewhere between 1.1 and 1.2 ,
(for Stash more near 1.2 i suppose).

You missed my post a few days ago where Komodo version 13.3 NOT the latest Dragon which is two newer version beat Stash 27.0, but against a GM Human like Nakamura rated around 3100 in Blitz, Dragon needs to play Bullets games since in time control of 5'+2" Naka could possibly beat Dragon with a Knight Odds. :roll:

The key point seems to be that knight odds should be thought of as four pawn odds, roughly double the two pawn handicap. Even knight for pawn is a three pawn handicap. Also based on some research I did a while ago, an engine rated CCRL blitz 3000 would probably score more than 95% against Nakamura in blitz or even in fast Rapid; I think I concluded that Nakamura would only get something like 2200 or so if he played under CCRL blitz conditions with the engines. It is not reasonable to expect any engine to give knight odds or even knight for pawn to a player 800 elo stronger than Nakamura in blitz.
Thanks for the explanation, Now I have a question if you play versus Dragon Knight Odds at 5'+1" and lose or draw, then we can assume that GM Nakamura at Bullet chess 1 minutes can probably draw against Dragon. Can you please play a few games at 5'+1" Knight Odds and post it here :roll:
Even at TC 2'+1" I believe that Komodo can still beat GM Nakamura. I Just found these games where Stockfish back in 2015 gave GM Wesley So a Knight Odds in Bullet and it beat him the 1st 2 games and it only drew the 3rd game, but of course GM Nakamura is much better than GM SO at Bullet https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xu-pSaN ... el=KchessK
The difference between one minute with no inc and one (or even two) minutes with one second inc is day and night.
Komodo rules!

Chessqueen
Posts: 1440
Joined: Wed Sep 05, 2018 12:16 am
Full name: George Pichard

Re: How many of you believe that Stockfish 12 or Komodo can give a rook Odds to a 1450 engine ?

Post by Chessqueen » Mon Feb 22, 2021 6:43 am

lkaufman wrote:
Mon Feb 22, 2021 3:27 am
Chessqueen wrote:
Sun Feb 21, 2021 11:04 pm
Chessqueen wrote:
Sun Feb 21, 2021 6:16 pm
lkaufman wrote:
Sun Feb 21, 2021 5:49 pm
Chessqueen wrote:
Sun Feb 21, 2021 2:53 pm
jefk wrote:
Sun Feb 21, 2021 12:36 pm
LK
So now it's valid to compare SF 13 and Dragon in terms of which can give knight odds to some weaker but still very strong (in human terms) engine.
yep, and apparently it's (still?) hard for Dragon (or SFnnue) to play
with knight odds against the weaker engine, even with the c7 pawn less
(probably due to a method of exchanging as much as possible and
winning the endgame). Maybe it would be more equal with another
pawn removed, the f7 pawn, or otherwise two pawns, maybe c7
and b7. If this wouldn''t work, an exchange handicap plus a pawn
handicap may be an idea, so e.g Dragon without a1 rook,
Stash without b8 or c8, and Dragon also without b2 or c2.
As for rating ratio, i suppose it's somewhere between 1.1 and 1.2 ,
(for Stash more near 1.2 i suppose).

You missed my post a few days ago where Komodo version 13.3 NOT the latest Dragon which is two newer version beat Stash 27.0, but against a GM Human like Nakamura rated around 3100 in Blitz, Dragon needs to play Bullets games since in time control of 5'+2" Naka could possibly beat Dragon with a Knight Odds. :roll:

The key point seems to be that knight odds should be thought of as four pawn odds, roughly double the two pawn handicap. Even knight for pawn is a three pawn handicap. Also based on some research I did a while ago, an engine rated CCRL blitz 3000 would probably score more than 95% against Nakamura in blitz or even in fast Rapid; I think I concluded that Nakamura would only get something like 2200 or so if he played under CCRL blitz conditions with the engines. It is not reasonable to expect any engine to give knight odds or even knight for pawn to a player 800 elo stronger than Nakamura in blitz.
Thanks for the explanation, Now I have a question if you play versus Dragon Knight Odds at 5'+1" and lose or draw, then we can assume that GM Nakamura at Bullet chess 1 minute can probably draw against Dragon. Can you please play a few games at 5'+1" Knight Odds and post it here :roll:
Even at TC 2'+1" I believe that Komodo can still beat GM Nakamura. I Just found these games where Stockfish back in 2015 gave GM Wesley So a Knight Odds in Bullet and it beat him the 1st 2 games and it only drew the 3rd game, but of course GM Nakamura is much better than GM SO at Bullet https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xu-pSaN ... el=KchessK
The difference between one minute with no inc and one (or even two) minutes with one second inc is day and night.
Yes indeed, sorry meant to write since Stockfish played GM So back in 2015 at Bullet chess nowadays 2021 Dragon even at 2 minutes without inc should draw versus Nakamura at Knight Odds :roll:

Chessqueen
Posts: 1440
Joined: Wed Sep 05, 2018 12:16 am
Full name: George Pichard

Re: How many of you believe that Stockfish 12 or Komodo can give a rook Odds to a 1450 engine ?

Post by Chessqueen » Mon Feb 22, 2021 1:59 pm

MonteCarlo wrote:
Wed Feb 17, 2021 2:49 pm
3100 blitz for a human on some online site is not stronger than a 3000 CCRL blitz engine just because the absolute number is higher.

The absolute numbers from different rating systems with different player pools are not directly comparable.

Top humans like Naka or MVL would likely lose by very large margins in blitz to most engines that are around 3000 CCRL blitz; their high chess.com ratings would not save them.

Stash 27.0 is still much weaker than Komodo, so I'm sure it will lose games even with some large-ish odds.

My only point was that Stash 27.0 performing better than MVL at some chess task isn't all that surprising (mostly responding to the "WOW" in your post about that). :D

Cheers!
Back in 2018 GM Nakamura played a few Odds versus Komodo version 13.3 and I believe that it is stronger than Stash 27.0 without Odds (Komodo 13.3 giving Odds is stronger than Stash 27.0 with all its pieces In other words Komodo 13.3 can beat Stash 27.0 with the same Odds that it gave GM Nakamura). Click where the letter H for GM Hikaru is located and you will see that it is playing at 2960+ and this was the results ==> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2R1mIJ8 ... =Chess.com

Chessqueen
Posts: 1440
Joined: Wed Sep 05, 2018 12:16 am
Full name: George Pichard

Re: How many of you believe that Stockfish 12 or Komodo can give a rook Odds to a 1450 engine ?

Post by Chessqueen » Mon Feb 22, 2021 3:14 pm

Chessqueen wrote:
Mon Feb 22, 2021 1:59 pm
MonteCarlo wrote:
Wed Feb 17, 2021 2:49 pm
3100 blitz for a human on some online site is not stronger than a 3000 CCRL blitz engine just because the absolute number is higher.

The absolute numbers from different rating systems with different player pools are not directly comparable.

Top humans like Naka or MVL would likely lose by very large margins in blitz to most engines that are around 3000 CCRL blitz; their high chess.com ratings would not save them.

Stash 27.0 is still much weaker than Komodo, so I'm sure it will lose games even with some large-ish odds.

Cheers!
Back in 2018 GM Nakamura played a few Odds versus Komodo version 13.3 and I believe that it is stronger than Stash 27.0 without Odds (Komodo 13.3 giving Odds is stronger than Stash 27.0 with all its pieces In other words Komodo 13.3 can beat Stash 27.0 with the same Odds that it gave GM Nakamura). Click where the letter H for GM Hikaru is located and you will see that it is playing at 2960+ and this was the results ==> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2R1mIJ8 ... =Chess.com
Here is the same position with the same Odds that Komodo gave GM Nakamura back in 2018, and if you replace Stash 27.0 instead of GM Nakamura playing white, this is what happened :roll:


lkaufman
Posts: 4524
Joined: Sun Jan 10, 2010 5:15 am
Location: Maryland USA
Contact:

Re: How many of you believe that Stockfish 12 or Komodo can give a rook Odds to a 1450 engine ?

Post by lkaufman » Mon Feb 22, 2021 3:49 pm

Chessqueen wrote:
Mon Feb 22, 2021 3:14 pm
Chessqueen wrote:
Mon Feb 22, 2021 1:59 pm
MonteCarlo wrote:
Wed Feb 17, 2021 2:49 pm
3100 blitz for a human on some online site is not stronger than a 3000 CCRL blitz engine just because the absolute number is higher.

The absolute numbers from different rating systems with different player pools are not directly comparable.

Top humans like Naka or MVL would likely lose by very large margins in blitz to most engines that are around 3000 CCRL blitz; their high chess.com ratings would not save them.

Stash 27.0 is still much weaker than Komodo, so I'm sure it will lose games even with some large-ish odds.

Cheers!
Back in 2018 GM Nakamura played a few Odds versus Komodo version 13.3 and I believe that it is stronger than Stash 27.0 without Odds (Komodo 13.3 giving Odds is stronger than Stash 27.0 with all its pieces In other words Komodo 13.3 can beat Stash 27.0 with the same Odds that it gave GM Nakamura). Click where the letter H for GM Hikaru is located and you will see that it is playing at 2960+ and this was the results ==> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2R1mIJ8 ... =Chess.com
Here is the same position with the same Odds that Komodo gave GM Nakamura back in 2018, and if you replace Stash 27.0 instead of GM Nakamura playing white, this is what happened :roll:

I don't recall any game between Komodo and Nakamura at that handicap. The two handicap games they played in 2018 (excluding "knightmare") were at pawn and two moves (f7 off, e4 played, WTM), and at third knight for pawn (f7 pawn changes to a third knight).
Komodo rules!

MonteCarlo
Posts: 146
Joined: Sun Dec 25, 2016 3:59 pm

Re: How many of you believe that Stockfish 12 or Komodo can give a rook Odds to a 1450 engine ?

Post by MonteCarlo » Mon Feb 22, 2021 3:58 pm

Yeah, a few quick points.

1. As I said clearly already, Stash 27.0 is still quite a bit weaker than Komodo, so I know it will lose some games.

2. Some of the moves in that game Stash 27.0 switches from quickly for me, so either your machine is very slow and/or the TC was faster than the Naka match, both of which would likely decrease the weaker player's chances.

3. As Larry mentioned, that was not one of the odds from that match.

4. Nowhere have I ever said that there will be no example of something a human might do better than Stash 27.0, especially as a one-off.

My only points have been these, which are in no way affected by the game you posted.

1. Stash 27.0 is ~3000 CCRL blitz, so it shouldn't be surprising if it can outperform strong humans at some chess tasks

2. A human like Naka is a big underdog in blitz against ~3000 CCRL engines; his 3000+ chess.com blitz rating is not relevant.

For that matter, a single game is also not "proof" that Naka is stronger than Stash 27.0. I've won individual games against a lot of much stronger players, and even that isn't what happened here. :D

Cheers!
Last edited by MonteCarlo on Mon Feb 22, 2021 4:10 pm, edited 2 times in total.

Chessqueen
Posts: 1440
Joined: Wed Sep 05, 2018 12:16 am
Full name: George Pichard

Re: How many of you believe that Stockfish 12 or Komodo can give a rook Odds to a 1450 engine ?

Post by Chessqueen » Mon Feb 22, 2021 4:01 pm

lkaufman wrote:
Mon Feb 22, 2021 3:49 pm
Chessqueen wrote:
Mon Feb 22, 2021 3:14 pm
Chessqueen wrote:
Mon Feb 22, 2021 1:59 pm
MonteCarlo wrote:
Wed Feb 17, 2021 2:49 pm
3100 blitz for a human on some online site is not stronger than a 3000 CCRL blitz engine just because the absolute number is higher.

The absolute numbers from different rating systems with different player pools are not directly comparable.

Top humans like Naka or MVL would likely lose by very large margins in blitz to most engines that are around 3000 CCRL blitz; their high chess.com ratings would not save them.

Stash 27.0 is still much weaker than Komodo, so I'm sure it will lose games even with some large-ish odds.

Cheers!
Back in 2018 GM Nakamura played a few Odds versus Komodo version 13.3 and I believe that it is stronger than Stash 27.0 without Odds (Komodo 13.3 giving Odds is stronger than Stash 27.0 with all its pieces In other words Komodo 13.3 can beat Stash 27.0 with the same Odds that it gave GM Nakamura). Click where the letter H for GM Hikaru is located and you will see that it is playing at 2960+ and this was the results ==> [Event "Computer chess game"]
Here is the same position with the same Odds that Komodo gave GM Nakamura back in 2018, and if you replace Stash 27.0 instead of GM Nakamura playing white, this is what happened :roll:

I don't recall any game between Komodo and Nakamura at that handicap. The two handicap games they played in 2018 (excluding "knightmare") were at pawn and two moves (f7 off, e4 played, WTM), and at third knight for pawn (f7 pawn changes to a third knight).
If you look at the link that I provided and click under the h of the White Rook, you will see that Komodo gave the f7 pawn and it ended in a draw, but to prove my point I gave Stash 27 the extra c7 pawn to prove that it is NOT stronger than GM Nakamura :roll:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2R1mIJ8 ... =Chess.com

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