We are the Computer Chess Community. We control ourselves.

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AndrewGrant
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We are the Computer Chess Community. We control ourselves.

Post by AndrewGrant » Sat Feb 20, 2021 5:26 am

Its time that people stand up and become the change that this community so badly needs, and that so many of us would like to see. That means not using ChessBase products. That means working to inform others so they too can avoid the grift of ChessBase. That means not support rating lists that give people like ChessBase the marketing power they so badly need in order to peddle their trash. I am no longer interested in CCRL in the slightest, until they take a real stance against Houdini and Fire, and now Fat Fritz 1 and 2. I'm close to completely abandoning CEGT, Ipman, FastGM, and all others that continue to play new games using Houdini and Fire.

I am trying to do my part to continue to see original, ethical work in computer chess. I'm maintaining OpenBench, which is letting a dozen authors work on their original projects, as well as helping dozens more who are running private instances. I answer many emails every week from up and coming engine authors, as well as well established ones. I offer machine power to help debug and test. I've offered my private NNUE training tools to a few people, in the hopes of getting people to explore different solutions. I've even offered it to Mark Lefler now, in hopes that they will leave the grifters in the dust bin of computer chess.

When I get around to Ethereal 13.00, I might be doing that as a commercial release. Yet I will provide all source code for the engine, and include the networks seperately as to not infringe on my own rights, and the rights I have given to users. I'll write about and talk about what I did in NNUE training differently. I'll provide as much evidence as is requested to show that what I've done is an original work. And I'll credit Stockfish with the few ideas that have made it all the way through to what I do privately.

Here is the reality: the computer chess community is in control of itself. Issues arise, and people deflect and say that its an issue for the courts. Wrong. This community runs on the court of public opinion, public discourse, and public debate. There is broad consensus that Houdini and Fire are stolen goods. Do something about it. Take them off your rating list, CCRL, CEGT, FastGM, Ipman. We know that nothing created by Albert Silver is worth our time, so don't test them, don't rate them, don't analyze with them. Albert is a nobody, don't put him in a position he has not earned.

So far, there are only two groups that have done what is so badly needed, and stood up and finally said enough is enough. TCEC has publically stated they believe Fire and Houdini are Stockfish clones, and have banned them as a result. CCC, as of recent, has not held events featuring the two engines, something which I've fought to ensure many times internally at chesscom.

CCC and TCEC are not perfect, and they never will be because there is no consensus on perfect. But they are the best we have, because of one simple fact: They have stood up to defend the honesty and integrity that seems to have diminished over the decades here.

gonzochess75
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Re: We are the Computer Chess Community. We control ourselves.

Post by gonzochess75 » Sat Feb 20, 2021 1:40 pm

FWIW, I think Lc0, SF, and Lichess projects coming together was a bit of a watershed too.

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mclane
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Re: We are the Computer Chess Community. We control ourselves.

Post by mclane » Sat Feb 20, 2021 2:54 pm

This marketing power and the exploitation of the situation was in the scene for many years.
In the years before we Mainly made sure that chessbase gets no championship title.
Just by beating their preferred engine like hell.

Stopping chessbase engines on tournaments and Championships was quite an interesting Sport.

They came with big hardware , but it’s one thing to have money and another thing to win.

Of course you cannot prevent them to buy the champion after the championship.
But then at least ONE programmer can negotiate for his best.
What seems like a fairy tale today may be reality tomorrow.
Here we have a fairy tale of the day after tomorrow....

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Rebel
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Re: We are the Computer Chess Community. We control ourselves.

Post by Rebel » Sat Feb 20, 2021 4:16 pm

Andrew, good post. You and noobpwnftw already have the hardware to create a new rating list. What lacks is the software and a couple of volunteers.
90% of coding is debugging, the other 10% is writing bugs.

Cornfed
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Re: We are the Computer Chess Community. We control ourselves.

Post by Cornfed » Sat Feb 20, 2021 4:23 pm

The only problem: Chessbase has the best products (Fritz is just a GUI...despite their current use of SF stuff). So, no...

Patishi
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Re: We are the Computer Chess Community. We control ourselves.

Post by Patishi » Sat Feb 20, 2021 4:59 pm

Cornfed wrote:
Sat Feb 20, 2021 4:23 pm
The only problem: Chessbase has the best products (Fritz is just a GUI...despite their current use of SF stuff). So, no...
Agreed. Fritz GUI is definitely the best out there, and I also think Playchess is the best for online play IMO. And if Fat Fritz 2 was so good that it would surpass the regular stockfish I would use it as well..copy or not, but the fact is that it is not.
Why reject something entirely? everyone just use whatever they like the most..
If you hate chessbase so much don't use their products..

Frank Quisinsky
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Re: We are the Computer Chess Community. We control ourselves.

Post by Frank Quisinsky » Sat Feb 20, 2021 7:26 pm

Hi Andrew,

Chessbase database is a strong product.
Working with it since the first MS DOS version!

Not free from mistakes all the years!

Included in Fritz 17 GUI is the program by Frank Schneider.
I need Ginkgo for my engine-test.

---

OK ...

1. Chess Explorer / Chesspad is a great combination (*.pgn standards are very fine for me).
Speaking about Chess Explorer by Mark Uniacke ... really a very nice software!!
This combination can be use, so I can try to life without Chessbase database!

2. But what is with Ginkgo (available in Fritz 17)?

---

Ehtereal 13.00 as commercial product?
That would be fine for me and you have my order!

Hm, I can try it out ...
Chess without Chessbase software after so many years of using but what is with Ginkgo?
After all I know Frank is working on a new program ... ChiChi

Maybe Frank can make "ChiChi" or "Gingko" free or commercial available for us.
I will not missed his program for my long-time tourneys!

If Ginkgo engine or ChiChi is free or commercial available by Frank itself,
I will support your idea and will offer my Chessbase products in ebay!

Honestly:
Open-Source programs can be use for commercial products. Nothing is wrong if in case of Stockfish GPLv3 supported.

I have no problems with the situation that Fat Fritz II is available!
I am not the biggest fan from Open-Source (Free / Open-Source is a different).
But if the open-source community have a problem with situation x or y the community of persons like free available software will support the idea.

The story about Albert Silver around it (number one, around the net, time of working and so on) is a laughing stock.

Best
Frank
I like computer chess!

Frank Quisinsky
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Re: We are the Computer Chess Community. We control ourselves.

Post by Frank Quisinsky » Sat Feb 20, 2021 7:46 pm

And the next problem is ...

What is with Komodo software?
Komodo team offer the own software on the own site!
But if the Komodo team support Chessbase company I have to delete Komodo or Dragon by Komodo from my tourneys and links from my website.

In this case ...
We need a clear statement from the Komodo team that Chessbase company will be no longer supported!

Again, I like your idea but I will not lose Dragon by Komodo and Gingko for my engine tourneys.
I like computer chess!

Frank Quisinsky
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Re: We are the Computer Chess Community. We control ourselves.

Post by Frank Quisinsky » Sat Feb 20, 2021 8:12 pm

And what I should do with the still-running FCP Tourney-2021.
After so many work around it.
15 out of 50 rounds played.
I need for the statistics for one round 3 hours.
I lost 15x 3-hours of time.
Klaus Wlotzka lost many time (Excel files).

If ...
I have to delete Gingko and Dragon by Komodo, I can restart the tourney!

Situation is not easy!
Give me your statement what people can do if they like Gingko and Komodo!

Best
Frank
I like computer chess!

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flok
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Re: We are the Computer Chess Community. We control ourselves.

Post by flok » Sat Feb 20, 2021 8:35 pm

Frank Quisinsky wrote:
Sat Feb 20, 2021 7:46 pm
And the next problem is ...

What is with Komodo software?
Komodo team offer the own software on the own site!
But if the Komodo team support Chessbase company I have to delete Komodo or Dragon by Komodo from my tourneys and links from my website.

In this case ...
We need a clear statement from the Komodo team that Chessbase company will be no longer supported!

Again, I like your idea but I will not lose Dragon by Komodo and Gingko for my engine tourneys.
Aren't you overreacting a bit?
www.vanheusden.com: Micah / Embla / PuppetMaster / DeepBrutePos / Pos / Feeks

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