Are neural nets (the weights file) copyrightable?

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gonzochess75
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Are neural nets (the weights file) copyrightable?

Post by gonzochess75 » Sun Feb 21, 2021 4:38 pm

The following thought occurred to me... if Chessbase is claiming that the FF2 weights file is not subject to the GPLv3 that is tantamount to saying that the weights file is not subject to copyright.

If that is the case, then what is stopping anyone from buying FF2 and distributing the net/weights file around or putting it up on an FTP to download for free? If the nets/weights file is not copyrightable, then FF2/AS does not have copyright to it.

It is a double edged sword saying that the net is not subject to GPLv3!

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xr_a_y
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Re: Are neural nets (the weights file) copyrightable?

Post by xr_a_y » Sun Feb 21, 2021 4:47 pm

Good question probably.

I explicitly release mine under GPL3 but I don't really know if it is really applicable (https://github.com/tryingsomestuff/NNUE-Nets).

Maybe I shall switch to CC BY 4.0 (GPL is talking a lot about "software" and net are more "data" probably).

dkappe
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Re: Are neural nets (the weights file) copyrightable?

Post by dkappe » Sun Feb 21, 2021 4:57 pm

gonzochess75 wrote:
Sun Feb 21, 2021 4:38 pm
The following thought occurred to me... if Chessbase is claiming that the FF2 weights file is not subject to the GPLv3 that is tantamount to saying that the weights file is not subject to copyright.

If that is the case, then what is stopping anyone from buying FF2 and distributing the net/weights file around or putting it up on an FTP to download for free? If the nets/weights file is not copyrightable, then FF2/AS does not have copyright to it.
I assume it is distributed under a different license, just as the stockfish nets are distributed under the Creative Commons license rather than the GPLv3. (Note licensing presumes copyright.)

Looking more broadly, pretrained models in other domains are being copyrighted and licensed under a variety of terms, both open source (Apache, etc.) and commercial. There is also a burgeoning industry in model watermarking and piracy detection.

I don’t know of any cases in any countries where the copyright or licensing terms on a pretrained model were challenged, so one can at best reason by analogy and general legal principles.

This is turning into talklaw.
Last edited by dkappe on Sun Feb 21, 2021 5:18 pm, edited 1 time in total.

gonzochess75
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Re: Are neural nets (the weights file) copyrightable?

Post by gonzochess75 » Sun Feb 21, 2021 5:18 pm

dkappe wrote:
Sun Feb 21, 2021 4:57 pm
gonzochess75 wrote:
Sun Feb 21, 2021 4:38 pm
The following thought occurred to me... if Chessbase is claiming that the FF2 weights file is not subject to the GPLv3 that is tantamount to saying that the weights file is not subject to copyright.

If that is the case, then what is stopping anyone from buying FF2 and distributing the net/weights file around or putting it up on an FTP to download for free? If the nets/weights file is not copyrightable, then FF2/AS does not have copyright to it.
I assume it is distributed under a different license, just as the stockfish nets are distributed under the Creative Commons license rather than the GPLv3. (Note licensing presumes copyright.)
That's not possible. If it is copyrightable and it links with Stockfish, then it is subject to the GPLv3 end of story. If it isn't copyrightable, then anyone can copy it.

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xr_a_y
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Re: Are neural nets (the weights file) copyrightable?

Post by xr_a_y » Sun Feb 21, 2021 5:19 pm

xr_a_y wrote:
Sun Feb 21, 2021 4:47 pm
Good question probably.

I explicitly release mine under GPL3 but I don't really know if it is really applicable (https://github.com/tryingsomestuff/NNUE-Nets).

Maybe I shall switch to CC BY 4.0 (GPL is talking a lot about "software" and net are more "data" probably).
I've just tried to change the license of Minic's net but github has an interesting feature that seems to forbib to change license to any other one. Only the ones that seems to have less "conditions" are available, so I cannot go grom GPL3 to CC BY 4.0 I think ... so let's stick to GPL3.

dkappe
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Re: Are neural nets (the weights file) copyrightable?

Post by dkappe » Sun Feb 21, 2021 5:20 pm

gonzochess75 wrote:
Sun Feb 21, 2021 5:18 pm
dkappe wrote:
Sun Feb 21, 2021 4:57 pm
gonzochess75 wrote:
Sun Feb 21, 2021 4:38 pm
The following thought occurred to me... if Chessbase is claiming that the FF2 weights file is not subject to the GPLv3 that is tantamount to saying that the weights file is not subject to copyright.

If that is the case, then what is stopping anyone from buying FF2 and distributing the net/weights file around or putting it up on an FTP to download for free? If the nets/weights file is not copyrightable, then FF2/AS does not have copyright to it.
I assume it is distributed under a different license, just as the stockfish nets are distributed under the Creative Commons license rather than the GPLv3. (Note licensing presumes copyright.)
That's not possible. If it is copyrightable and it links with Stockfish, then it is subject to the GPLv3 end of story. If it isn't copyrightable, then anyone can copy it.
It’s been reported that the binary and network are now separate. Is that not true? Also, by that logic could SF not be covered by ChessBases’ license? How do you figure out which one wins out?
Last edited by dkappe on Sun Feb 21, 2021 5:25 pm, edited 2 times in total.

dkappe
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Re: Are neural nets (the weights file) copyrightable?

Post by dkappe » Sun Feb 21, 2021 5:23 pm

xr_a_y wrote:
Sun Feb 21, 2021 5:19 pm
xr_a_y wrote:
Sun Feb 21, 2021 4:47 pm
Good question probably.

I explicitly release mine under GPL3 but I don't really know if it is really applicable (https://github.com/tryingsomestuff/NNUE-Nets).

Maybe I shall switch to CC BY 4.0 (GPL is talking a lot about "software" and net are more "data" probably).
I've just tried to change the license of Minic's net but github has an interesting feature that seems to forbib to change license to any other one. Only the ones that seems to have less "conditions" are available, so I cannot go grom GPL3 to CC BY 4.0 I think ... so let's stick to GPL3.
Nothing forbids you from zipping up the net with a CC license text. Not all parts of a github project have to be covered by the same license.

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xr_a_y
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Re: Are neural nets (the weights file) copyrightable?

Post by xr_a_y » Sun Feb 21, 2021 5:25 pm

dkappe wrote:
Sun Feb 21, 2021 5:23 pm
xr_a_y wrote:
Sun Feb 21, 2021 5:19 pm
xr_a_y wrote:
Sun Feb 21, 2021 4:47 pm
Good question probably.

I explicitly release mine under GPL3 but I don't really know if it is really applicable (https://github.com/tryingsomestuff/NNUE-Nets).

Maybe I shall switch to CC BY 4.0 (GPL is talking a lot about "software" and net are more "data" probably).
I've just tried to change the license of Minic's net but github has an interesting feature that seems to forbib to change license to any other one. Only the ones that seems to have less "conditions" are available, so I cannot go grom GPL3 to CC BY 4.0 I think ... so let's stick to GPL3.
Nothing forbids you from zipping up the net with a CC license text. Not all parts of a github project have to be covered by the same license.
Well there is not much at stake anyway... I'll stay to GPL3.

gonzochess75
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Full name: Adam Treat

Re: Are neural nets (the weights file) copyrightable?

Post by gonzochess75 » Sun Feb 21, 2021 5:26 pm

dkappe wrote:
Sun Feb 21, 2021 5:20 pm
gonzochess75 wrote:
Sun Feb 21, 2021 5:18 pm
dkappe wrote:
Sun Feb 21, 2021 4:57 pm
gonzochess75 wrote:
Sun Feb 21, 2021 4:38 pm
The following thought occurred to me... if Chessbase is claiming that the FF2 weights file is not subject to the GPLv3 that is tantamount to saying that the weights file is not subject to copyright.

If that is the case, then what is stopping anyone from buying FF2 and distributing the net/weights file around or putting it up on an FTP to download for free? If the nets/weights file is not copyrightable, then FF2/AS does not have copyright to it.
I assume it is distributed under a different license, just as the stockfish nets are distributed under the Creative Commons license rather than the GPLv3. (Note licensing presumes copyright.)
That's not possible. If it is copyrightable and it links with Stockfish, then it is subject to the GPLv3 end of story. If it isn't copyrightable, then anyone can copy it.
It’s been reported that the binary and network are now separate. Is that not true? Also, by that logic could SF not be covered by ChessBases’ license? How do you figure out which one wins out?
It is clear you know nothing about the GPLv3. Maybe just bow out with your ignorance.

dkappe
Posts: 855
Joined: Tue Aug 21, 2018 5:52 pm
Full name: Dietrich Kappe

Re: Are neural nets (the weights file) copyrightable?

Post by dkappe » Sun Feb 21, 2021 5:30 pm

gonzochess75 wrote:
Sun Feb 21, 2021 5:26 pm
dkappe wrote:
Sun Feb 21, 2021 5:20 pm
gonzochess75 wrote:
Sun Feb 21, 2021 5:18 pm
dkappe wrote:
Sun Feb 21, 2021 4:57 pm
gonzochess75 wrote:
Sun Feb 21, 2021 4:38 pm
The following thought occurred to me... if Chessbase is claiming that the FF2 weights file is not subject to the GPLv3 that is tantamount to saying that the weights file is not subject to copyright.

If that is the case, then what is stopping anyone from buying FF2 and distributing the net/weights file around or putting it up on an FTP to download for free? If the nets/weights file is not copyrightable, then FF2/AS does not have copyright to it.
I assume it is distributed under a different license, just as the stockfish nets are distributed under the Creative Commons license rather than the GPLv3. (Note licensing presumes copyright.)
That's not possible. If it is copyrightable and it links with Stockfish, then it is subject to the GPLv3 end of story. If it isn't copyrightable, then anyone can copy it.
It’s been reported that the binary and network are now separate. Is that not true? Also, by that logic could SF not be covered by ChessBases’ license? How do you figure out which one wins out?
It is clear you know nothing about the GPLv3. Maybe just bow out with your ignorance.
Why don’t you educate me? What is it that I misunderstand? Also, does this really have to be such a confrontational discussion?

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