The Dead of the Fish?.....

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Uri Blass
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Re: The Dead of the Fish?.....

Post by Uri Blass » Thu Aug 30, 2007 10:36 am

Michael Sherwin wrote:
Uri Blass wrote:I hope not and I hope that rybka is going to win.
It is not nice to kill poor weak fish espacially when the programmer of zappa claimed in the past that he left computer chess(the claim of the authot that he left computer chess is the main reason that I am against zappa and I think that people should not claim that they left computer chess if they are not sure that they leave it).

We cannot learn nothing from result in playchess when exact hardware of the opponents and exact rybka version is not known.

Uri
Well, AC is not a bad guy for experiencing some turmoil over whether to concentrate on a professional carrer or write a chess program. He is allowed to change his mind any number of times and nobody should criticise him for it. And even if he quit for real, that does not mean that he can not try new ideas that pop into his head. He has a damn good chess program, so why shouldn't he pull it off the shelf from time to time, dust it off and make an improvement. Then he ofcourse has every right to compete with it. I hope the match is very close as that would make the fight for #1 more interesting again! 8-)
Maybe it is not the case but the impression that I got is that the claims of Anthony that he is retired was in order to convince Vas to work less hard about rybka because he does not need to be afraid of losing rybka's superiority to zappa.

I remember that he claimed that he was retired and slightly later released Zap!Chess Zanzibar that was a big improvement when programmers that did not claim that they are retired did not get that type of big improvement.

It seemed misleading to me and I see no reason for this type of behaviour except trying to convince Vas to work less hard on rybka because Anthony is retired and is not a threat to Vas's superiority(of course there are other people in the world but psychollogically it can convince Vas to work less time on rybka)

Uri

ArmyBridge

Re: The Dead of the Fish?.....

Post by ArmyBridge » Thu Aug 30, 2007 2:44 pm

set rybka's strength to 10% :?: surely your are joking :roll: the matter is not to diminish its force ,the matter is have a program that can beat Rybka in full strength

Norm Pollock
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Re: The Dead of the Fish?.....

Post by Norm Pollock » Thu Aug 30, 2007 5:39 pm

It is possible that AC gained some insight from the Strelka revelations. If so, the implementation of those theories into Zap should make it much more competitive with the Fish.

Michael Sherwin
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Re: The Dead of the Fish?.....

Post by Michael Sherwin » Thu Aug 30, 2007 6:14 pm

Uri Blass wrote:
Michael Sherwin wrote:
Uri Blass wrote:I hope not and I hope that rybka is going to win.
It is not nice to kill poor weak fish espacially when the programmer of zappa claimed in the past that he left computer chess(the claim of the authot that he left computer chess is the main reason that I am against zappa and I think that people should not claim that they left computer chess if they are not sure that they leave it).

We cannot learn nothing from result in playchess when exact hardware of the opponents and exact rybka version is not known.

Uri
Well, AC is not a bad guy for experiencing some turmoil over whether to concentrate on a professional carrer or write a chess program. He is allowed to change his mind any number of times and nobody should criticise him for it. And even if he quit for real, that does not mean that he can not try new ideas that pop into his head. He has a damn good chess program, so why shouldn't he pull it off the shelf from time to time, dust it off and make an improvement. Then he ofcourse has every right to compete with it. I hope the match is very close as that would make the fight for #1 more interesting again! 8-)
Maybe it is not the case but the impression that I got is that the claims of Anthony that he is retired was in order to convince Vas to work less hard about rybka because he does not need to be afraid of losing rybka's superiority to zappa.

I remember that he claimed that he was retired and slightly later released Zap!Chess Zanzibar that was a big improvement when programmers that did not claim that they are retired did not get that type of big improvement.

It seemed misleading to me and I see no reason for this type of behaviour except trying to convince Vas to work less hard on rybka because Anthony is retired and is not a threat to Vas's superiority(of course there are other people in the world but psychollogically it can convince Vas to work less time on rybka)

Uri
Well, I do know one thing for sure. And that is just before he announced his retirement, AC was showing some interest in some of my ideas! :D So, I suppose that Vas and then later AC had a look at the RomiChess sources! :roll: :lol: :lol: :lol:
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Michael Sherwin
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Re: The Dead of the Fish?.....

Post by Michael Sherwin » Thu Aug 30, 2007 6:18 pm

ArmyBridge wrote:set rybka's strength to 10% :?: surely your are joking :roll: the matter is not to diminish its force ,the matter is have a program that can beat Rybka in full strength
10% then 11% ... then 100%.

But, not in just one day! :P
If you are on a sidewalk and the covid goes beep beep
Just step aside or you might have a bit of heat
Covid covid runs through the town all day
Can the people ever change their ways
Sherwin the covid's after you
Sherwin if it catches you you're through

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Ovyron
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Re: The Dead of the Fish?.....

Post by Ovyron » Thu Aug 30, 2007 10:10 pm

I also hope that Rybka loses the match, but the reason is that I think that it would help the improvement of Rybka. There are some things about Rybka I don't like, and I hope Zappa exploits such weaknesses to make Rybka lose so Vas finally decides to get rid of them (Like blocking her pawns with pieces and other counter intuitive behavior).

ArmyBridge

Re: The Dead of the Fish?.....

Post by ArmyBridge » Thu Aug 30, 2007 10:31 pm

blocking her pawns with pieces :?: I didn't see such behaivor yet in Rybka, I guess it is because it's a program and if she see + whatever u want it select the move... Rybka play is strange, but when the smoke of the battle rises only Rybka remains. Rybka weakness i think is certain tactics positions, King side attack.. I always thought that if u want destroy Rybka u must be very agressive and deeper, ok is not a easy task but Zanzibar is in the right way :P

Ryan Benitez
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Re: The Dead of the Fish?.....

Post by Ryan Benitez » Thu Aug 30, 2007 10:53 pm

Ovyron wrote:I also hope that Rybka loses the match, but the reason is that I think that it would help the improvement of Rybka. There are some things about Rybka I don't like, and I hope Zappa exploits such weaknesses to make Rybka lose so Vas finally decides to get rid of them (Like blocking her pawns with pieces and other counter intuitive behavior).
It can be hard to fix the counter intuitive behavior and bring gain in terms of elo in computer vs. computer games. There are issues such as knowledge that is usually right but not always right can and will be applied incorrectly if you do not have all the right cases taken care of. This can take amazing amounts of time to get right. Some types of knowledge can take up too much cpu time to calculate to be worth it. Every piece of knowledge must work well with everything else going on. Anyway I expect it to be a great match and I hope Zappa wins because it would be great for computer chess and I think Anthony deserves it.

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Ovyron
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Re: The Dead of the Fish?.....

Post by Ovyron » Thu Aug 30, 2007 11:11 pm

ArmyBridge wrote:blocking her pawns with pieces :?: I didn't see such behaivor yet in Rybka
Oh yes, I forgot to say most of these cases happen on the opening, so a good book will hide this behavior. But I wanted to use Rybka to analize my games when they get out of book, and sometimes it happens fairly soon (At my low level my opponents may make weird moves and I want to know how to take advantage of it).

So far Rybka (2.3.2a 32bit 1CPU) has been useless, she may just block her own position and reach a position in where she thinks herself is ~1.00 worse! Of course on the middle game she just outplays everything, but I wanted better information earlier (the opening) and I have used other engines for this, as they evaluate these odd openings much better.

I wish Zappa gets somehow Rybka out of book very early and then punishes these un-consistencies, though I wonder if Rybka 64bit 8CPU still shows this behavior in the opening.

Nid Hogge

Re: The Dead of the Fish?.....

Post by Nid Hogge » Thu Aug 30, 2007 11:23 pm

Well I for one really hope that anthony will be back and give us stronger Zappa.

BUT, If I'd get a penny every time I heard about the "New Rybka Killer", from seferal sources, I would be a very rich man right now.

People don't understand how really strong is Rybka. Zap would need almost +-100 ELO gain to start beating it head to head AND its still going to be tight.

Having said that, I really wish Zappa all the best of luck, and I hope we finally see something that can compete with Rybka.
Competition is alwats better and more enjoying.

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