GM Kaufman v.Novag Constellation 3.6 QR Odds (Moves 1-40)

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Don
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Re: GM Kaufman v. Novag Constellation 3.6 QR Odds Game

Post by Don »

lkaufman wrote:
Steve B wrote: Connie ..never one to pass up on gobbling pawns and checking the K .. kills two birds with one stone and plays..

36..Rxf2+

[d] 6k1/p1pr1p1p/1p4q1/3n4/2Bp2RB/6Q1/P4r1K/8 w - - 0 37

Having Her Cake And Eating It Too Regards
Steve
I play 37.Kg1, since it attacks the rook and I can see no point in putting the king on h1 or h3. Currently I'm in second place after six rounds of the US Open, and I won the game/15' championship and the Fischerandom tourney, so maybe this game with Connie has been good practice!
Komodo agrees with your move. Komodo with high contempt thinks that white definitely has the advantage after 35 ply or so of search depth.

The score is about 46 centipawns and it plays Kg1 also.

But it does look like the landscape is full of perpetual check land mines.
Terry McCracken
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Joined: Wed Aug 01, 2007 4:16 am
Location: Canada

Re: GM Kaufman v. Novag Constellation 3.6 QR Odds Game

Post by Terry McCracken »

Don wrote:
lkaufman wrote:
Steve B wrote: Connie ..never one to pass up on gobbling pawns and checking the K .. kills two birds with one stone and plays..

36..Rxf2+

[d] 6k1/p1pr1p1p/1p4q1/3n4/2Bp2RB/6Q1/P4r1K/8 w - - 0 37

Having Her Cake And Eating It Too Regards
Steve
I play 37.Kg1, since it attacks the rook and I can see no point in putting the king on h1 or h3. Currently I'm in second place after six rounds of the US Open, and I won the game/15' championship and the Fischerandom tourney, so maybe this game with Connie has been good practice!
Komodo agrees with your move. Komodo with high contempt thinks that white definitely has the advantage after 35 ply or so of search depth.

The score is about 46 centipawns and it plays Kg1 also.

But it does look like the landscape is full of perpetual check land mines.
There're ways to draw but the Connie may not search deep enough to do so.

If I'm correct then it will go into a steady decline and another _Whopper_ and the Connie will.......

TILT Regards,
Terry McCracken
Steve B
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Re: GM Kaufman v. Novag Constellation 3.6 QR Odds Game

Post by Steve B »

lkaufman wrote: I play 37.Kg1, since it attacks the rook and I can see no point in putting the king on h1 or h3. Currently I'm in second place after six rounds of the US Open, and I won the game/15' championship and the Fischerandom tourney, so maybe this game with Connie has been good practice!
Connie returns the R to whence it came after pocketing the P with...

37..Rf5

[d] 6k1/p1pr1p1p/1p4q1/3n1r2/2Bp2RB/6Q1/P7/6K1 w - - 0 38

The Endgame Approaches Regards
Steve
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michiguel
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Location: Chicago, Illinois, USA

Re: GM Kaufman v. Novag Constellation 3.6 QR Odds Game

Post by michiguel »

Steve B wrote:
lkaufman wrote: I play 37.Kg1, since it attacks the rook and I can see no point in putting the king on h1 or h3. Currently I'm in second place after six rounds of the US Open, and I won the game/15' championship and the Fischerandom tourney, so maybe this game with Connie has been good practice!
Connie returns the R to whence it came after pocketing the P with...

37..Rf5

[d] 6k1/p1pr1p1p/1p4q1/3n1r2/2Bp2RB/6Q1/P7/6K1 w - - 0 38

The Endgame Approaches Regards
Steve
Another blunder?

Miguel
Steve B
Posts: 3697
Joined: Tue Jul 31, 2007 4:26 pm

Re: GM Kaufman v. Novag Constellation 3.6 QR Odds Game

Post by Steve B »

michiguel wrote:
Steve B wrote:
lkaufman wrote: I play 37.Kg1, since it attacks the rook and I can see no point in putting the king on h1 or h3. Currently I'm in second place after six rounds of the US Open, and I won the game/15' championship and the Fischerandom tourney, so maybe this game with Connie has been good practice!
Connie returns the R to whence it came after pocketing the P with...

37..Rf5

[d] 6k1/p1pr1p1p/1p4q1/3n1r2/2Bp2RB/6Q1/P7/6K1 w - - 0 38

The Endgame Approaches Regards
Steve
Another blunder?

Miguel

what would Gaviota's score of the position be here with White to move Miguel?
no analysis
just the score ..after pondering for 3 minutes
Thanks
Steve
bob
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Location: Birmingham, AL

Re: GM Kaufman v. Novag Constellation 3.6 QR Odds Game

Post by bob »

Steve B wrote:
michiguel wrote:
Steve B wrote:
lkaufman wrote: I play 37.Kg1, since it attacks the rook and I can see no point in putting the king on h1 or h3. Currently I'm in second place after six rounds of the US Open, and I won the game/15' championship and the Fischerandom tourney, so maybe this game with Connie has been good practice!
Connie returns the R to whence it came after pocketing the P with...

37..Rf5

[d] 6k1/p1pr1p1p/1p4q1/3n1r2/2Bp2RB/6Q1/P7/6K1 w - - 0 38

The Endgame Approaches Regards
Steve
Another blunder?

Miguel

what would Gaviota's score of the position be here with White to move Miguel?
no analysis
just the score ..after pondering for 3 minutes
Thanks
Steve
Crafty says "draw" (0.01 which is a draw with white being material up). After 3 mins at 20M nodes per sec.
Steve B
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Joined: Tue Jul 31, 2007 4:26 pm

Re: GM Kaufman v. Novag Constellation 3.6 QR Odds Game

Post by Steve B »

bob wrote:
Steve B wrote:
michiguel wrote:
Steve B wrote:
lkaufman wrote: I play 37.Kg1, since it attacks the rook and I can see no point in putting the king on h1 or h3. Currently I'm in second place after six rounds of the US Open, and I won the game/15' championship and the Fischerandom tourney, so maybe this game with Connie has been good practice!
Connie returns the R to whence it came after pocketing the P with...

37..Rf5

[d] 6k1/p1pr1p1p/1p4q1/3n1r2/2Bp2RB/6Q1/P7/6K1 w - - 0 38

The Endgame Approaches Regards
Steve
Another blunder?

Miguel

what would Gaviota's score of the position be here with White to move Miguel?
no analysis
just the score ..after pondering for 3 minutes
Thanks
Steve
Crafty says "draw" (0.01 which is a draw with white being material up). After 3 mins at 20M nodes per sec.
Thanks Bob
would be interesting to see more scores from Crafty and other engines as the game progresses(or deteriorates for Connie..if it does)

on one hand i am rooting for the GM to beat the computer at the enormous disadvantage of a R..which would be quite impressive
while on the other hand i am trying to get some positive evidence for the experiment so i am pulling for Connie to at least Draw
so i have mixed emotions..
sort of like watching my mother-in-law drive off a cliff in my new Lexus
:P

Steve
bob
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Location: Birmingham, AL

Re: GM Kaufman v. Novag Constellation 3.6 QR Odds Game

Post by bob »

Steve B wrote:
bob wrote:
Steve B wrote:
michiguel wrote:
Steve B wrote:
lkaufman wrote: I play 37.Kg1, since it attacks the rook and I can see no point in putting the king on h1 or h3. Currently I'm in second place after six rounds of the US Open, and I won the game/15' championship and the Fischerandom tourney, so maybe this game with Connie has been good practice!
Connie returns the R to whence it came after pocketing the P with...

37..Rf5

[d] 6k1/p1pr1p1p/1p4q1/3n1r2/2Bp2RB/6Q1/P7/6K1 w - - 0 38

The Endgame Approaches Regards
Steve
Another blunder?

Miguel

what would Gaviota's score of the position be here with White to move Miguel?
no analysis
just the score ..after pondering for 3 minutes
Thanks
Steve
Crafty says "draw" (0.01 which is a draw with white being material up). After 3 mins at 20M nodes per sec.
Thanks Bob
would be interesting to see more scores from Crafty and other engines as the game progresses(or deteriorates for Connie..if it does)

on one hand i am rooting for the GM to beat the computer at the enormous disadvantage of a R..which would be quite impressive
while on the other hand i am trying to get some positive evidence for the experiment so i am pulling for Connie to at least Draw
so i have mixed emotions..
sort of like watching my mother-in-law drive off a cliff in my new Lexus
:P

Steve
Here, depth is the issue. And Connie doesn't have much of it. Again, this reminds me of the old days when every game was torture to watch, not knowing whether you would make a truly stupid mistake or not. Today, this really is an infrequent problem (does still exist of course, just pushed _way_ farther out into the tree). This is going to be an easy game to lose or draw, and a little luck (good or bad) will likely have a major impact. I don't remember, but does the Connie let you know how deep it is searching? Back in those days, effective branching factor was way high, and this kind of ending was about the worst case for EBF to boot since there are so many moves with rooks/queens on an open board. It is bad enough to hook yourself, but back in those days, the programs would often hook themselves, set the hook, then haul themselves out of the water and throw themselves into the livewell, quite willingly. :) Endgames used to be feared back then because deep calculation is often needed, but not possible.
Milton
Posts: 139
Joined: Thu Mar 09, 2006 12:58 am

Re: GM Kaufman v. Novag Constellation 3.6 QR Odds Game

Post by Milton »

"sort of like watching my mother-in-law drive off a cliff in my new Lexus"

I take it your mother-in-law doesn't visit this forum much... :shock:

You know, I've really admired the Phoenix Revelation chess boards. Do you know where I can get one cheap? :)

Extortionist Regards,
Milton
bob
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Joined: Mon Feb 27, 2006 7:30 pm
Location: Birmingham, AL

Re: GM Kaufman v. Novag Constellation 3.6 QR Odds Game

Post by bob »

This reminds me of a particular instant at the 1977 ACM event (I believe, long time ago so it could have been a year later). The typical program, back then, set two time limits, a soft limit and a hard limit. After finishing an iteration, if the program had passed the soft limit, the search terminated and the best move found was played. If it had not passed the soft limit the search continued. If, at any time, during the middle of an iteration, the hard limit was reached, the search was terminated and the best move found so far was played immediately.

I was watching a game between chess 4.x and somebody (do not remember who) where at iteration N, they finished close to the soft time limit, but not over, so they started a new iteration. As they gave their analysis to David Levy on the stage, he looked and said, "wait a minute, that move loses, here's why." Slate was pretty sure that 4.x could see that. But back then nobody displayed any search output until the end of the iteration, or the final PV when the search times out. So neither Slate nor Atkin knew whether the PV score had dropped, nor did they know whether or not they had changed their mind. Hence, they were bouncing around like two kids worried about (a) did it see the problem with the current best move? (b) had it already found something better? (c) If not, would it find something better before time ran out. Watching that almost nervous breakdown led me to two ideas.

As Murray Campbell and I were talking (my game was over) I mentioned "you know, I display the PV/score/etc at the end of each iteration, but it is an easy change to move that code up so that the PV is displayed whenever it changed." He thought that was an excellent idea. I made the change, fixed a couple of bugs (the PV now has to be displayed in the search, rather than in iterate.c) and we agreed that this was a quantum leap forward for operator sanity, because now we knew what was going on. I thought a bit longer and concluded "if the score drops a lot, why sit around worrying about whether I will find a better move before time runs out, why not just increase the time limit to guarantee that we have a chance to solve whatever problem the best move so far has?" I made that change and the rest is history. I explained the idea later in the event, wrote it up for the JICCA (along with another idea we came up with later, that of using more time right out of book to make sure we 'understood' what was happening since there are some difficult gambits to deal with.) The paper "Using Time Wisely" was published, and one dark chapter of computer chess was closed forever. :)

My move-by-change output format has not changed in almost 35 years since, since it makes so much sense. Ditto for time overflow and using more time right out of book. The funny thing was the changes were less about making the program play better and more about helping the operator keep his sanity, although the time-overflow did make a difference in Elo...