Why don't strong engines enter WCCC?

[Sedat Canbaz]

I'm sure that if Vasik wasn't discriminated against he'd would have not left Computer Chess! Somebody call him back!

+100

Btw,
Can anybody try to explain me this,
If Rybka is a clone or derivative of Fruit, then is it possible :
- To be to be improved more than +400 Elo ... ???

Code: Select all

CCRL (40/4)

Rybka 4.1 64-bit	3101 Elo
Fruit 2.1	       2685 Elo

Hey dear chess friends,
It's time to see the reality !!

[Uri Blass]

Rybka was NOT a Fruit clone. Most ~2800 engines do calculate around 100-500 kNodes/sec on my system. Rybka, which merely calculates 100 kNodes/ sec with single core on my system, is rated 3161! Its evaluation function is far superior than even engines today, and I belive that was the reason Vasik didn't want to show them the code. They, at that time, didn't accuse any other engine, that was enough for Vasik to believe that they're trying to steal code.

Number of "nodes" is meaningless because it is easy to reduce the number of "nodes" that you see by printing a different value(for example printing nodes/10)

I agree that Rybka was not a fruit clone but I think that the main advantage of rybka is a superior search and not a superior evaluation.

Note that the claim of the ICGA against rybka is not that rybka is a fruit clone but that rybka is a fruit derivative and these claims are different.

It is obvious that rybka has a lot of code that did not come from fruit
and the claim that rybka is a fruit derivative is because there are people who claim that rybka has a significant part that came from fruit.

Note that I saw no convincing evidence that rybka has a significant part that came from fruit.

[Sedat Canbaz]

Number of "nodes" is meaningless because it is easy to reduce the number of "nodes" that you see by printing a different value(for example printing nodes/10)

I agree that Rybka was not a fruit clone but I think that the main advantage of rybka is a superior search and not a superior evaluation.

Note that the claim of the ICGA against rybka is not that rybka is a fruit clone but that rybka is a fruit derivative and these claims are different.

It is obvious that rybka has a lot of code that did not come from fruit
and the claim that rybka is a fruit derivative is because there are people who claim that rybka has a significant part that came from fruit.

Note that I saw no convincing evidence that rybka has a significant part that came from fruit.

Good points...

Just I'd like to add,
If Rybka will be counted as Fruit derivative...
Then definitely Stockfish, Komodo, Houdini, Gull should be counted as Rybka derivatives !!!

[vittyvirus]

Number of "nodes" is meaningless because it is easy to reduce the number of "nodes" that you see by printing a different value(for example printing nodes/10)

I agree that Rybka was not a fruit clone but I think that the main advantage of rybka is a superior search and not a superior evaluation.

Note that the claim of the ICGA against rybka is not that rybka is a fruit clone but that rybka is a fruit derivative and these claims are different.

It is obvious that rybka has a lot of code that did not come from fruit
and the claim that rybka is a fruit derivative is because there are people who claim that rybka has a significant part that came from fruit.

Note that I saw no convincing evidence that rybka has a significant part that came from fruit.

Good points...

Just I'd like to add,
If Rybka will be counted as Fruit derivative...
Then definitely Stockfish, Komodo, Houdini, Gull should be counted as Rybka derivatives !!!

+1000

[Sedat Canbaz]

Btw,
For those who still does not agree with my statements/published picture ...
Then I suggest to check my recent published sim test results...
It helps really to see the reality )))

.

[vittyvirus]

Btw,
For those who still does not agree with my statements/published picture ...
Then I suggest to check my recent published sim test results...
It helps really to see the reality )))

.

It's like strong engines make strong engines more stronger. I guess that's obvious, right?

[jdart]

I don't quite understand this. What can they do to check it? They just compare it to source code from other programs. What else can they do? They are not going to sell it... Or do you mean you are afraid that they show it to a competitor, who will steal all your innovative tricks? I am pretty sure it can be negociated who can examine the code when such a case arises.

I have worked on closed-source software (not chess) for over 20 years. When you show proprietary source code to anyone, you take a risk. For a software company, that is all the assets they have, and may have taken years to develop. So you are going to be very reluctant to let it out, even for good reason, even to someone apparently trustworthy.

On top of that, in this case, there is the issue of what ICGA is going to do with it. They are going to examine it, if they deem it necessary, for originality. They are going to be the judge of that and you have no control over the process and no means of appeal over the outcome. They'll ban you and revoke your title, maybe years after the event, if they don't like the results.

When you weigh all that against the dubious possible benefits of winning the tournament, it starts to look unattractive.

--Jon

[Sedat Canbaz]

It's like strong engines make strong engines more stronger. I guess that's obvious, right?

Yes...

Actually I see this 'BIG Elo improving' as a collective work!!

And no any author has right to say that all this work 100 % belongs to me!

And in my opinion,
One of the most talented programmers for the latest 5 years are:
Marco Costalba (the author of Stockfish)
Robert Houdart (the author of Houdini)
Vasik Rajlich (the author of Rybka)

Note also that,
The above top engines are managed to be as 'number one' in many rating lists (including in SCCT) for the latest 5 years!

[jdart]

It is ironic, then, that none of these are represented at WCCC, which is supposed to reward programming talent.

--Jon

[Sedat Canbaz]

It is ironic, then, that none of these are represented at WCCC, which is supposed to reward programming talent.

--Jon

It seems so...

I see WCCC as a Second league!
I suppose you know: who are the real players in the Super league ?!)