Return Match for Komodo

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lkaufman
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Re: Return Match for Komodo

Post by lkaufman » Wed Aug 10, 2016 3:17 pm

Laskos wrote:
lkaufman wrote:
Laskos wrote:
lkaufman wrote:[

Ok, my I7 laptop which is nearly 2 years old gets about 4100 knps, so that's another handicap. Still, even with five to one time odds, no ponder, White every game, no opening book, and slow hardware you did well to get some points with equal material. Maybe it's not too hard to make draws with White under these conditions if you pick the right openings, I haven't really researched this question.
Larry, come on.
At 2' + 2'' vs 10'+ 10'', 5-fold time handicap, I already scored a single win, and drew 3 or 4 out of 10 games.
In those conditions, it's a 2800-2900 human performance.
Well, just by math, you are right, and this should be impossible. However we already know from the games posted by the player using the handle "father" that with enough trial and error, you can find openings that will result in a sufficiently locked position to get draws sometimes. In the present case, I'm inclined to believe that he has tried out enough openings to find the ones that Komodo (without a book and little time) will permit to reach closed positions, where it is easy enough to draw. Maybe I'm gullible, but I tend to believe people until I have a strong enough reason not to do so. If I ever have the time, I may try to find out myself whether I can find openings that allow me to close the position enough to make draws against a bookless Komodo playing Black.
"Father"'s draw rate is below 5% IIRC, and he often posts won games on time (lag) from lost, but pretty locked positions, which resolve with 50 move rule or Contempt. I don't remember any single clear win of him in all these years. He still overperforms his rating, but by 200-300 ELO points, not 800. And the win claim... I would be surprised to see even Carlsen or Nakamura in these conditions getting a single win in a short match.
If they just played ten games after getting the program, then I agree with you. But if they can try out a hundred different openings first to see which ones Komodo misplays badly, then it's a different story. MP unpredictibility might save Komodo, but maybe not. I remember one private game GM Lenderman played against Komodo at my home under similar conditions; Komodo made a serious opening error about move 5 after which there was almost no chance of a Black win, although Komodo did hold the draw.
Komodo rules!

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George
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Re: Return Match for Komodo

Post by George » Wed Aug 10, 2016 6:07 pm

lkaufman wrote:
Laskos wrote:
lkaufman wrote:
Laskos wrote:
lkaufman wrote:[

Ok, my I7 laptop which is nearly 2 years old gets about 4100 knps, so that's another handicap. Still, even with five to one time odds, no ponder, White every game, no opening book, and slow hardware you did well to get some points with equal material. Maybe it's not too hard to make draws with White under these conditions if you pick the right openings, I haven't really researched this question.
Larry, come on.
At 2' + 2'' vs 10'+ 10'', 5-fold time handicap, I already scored a single win, and drew 3 or 4 out of 10 games.
In those conditions, it's a 2800-2900 human performance.
Well, just by math, you are right, and this should be impossible. However we already know from the games posted by the player using the handle "father" that with enough trial and error, you can find openings that will result in a sufficiently locked position to get draws sometimes. In the present case, I'm inclined to believe that he has tried out enough openings to find the ones that Komodo (without a book and little time) will permit to reach closed positions, where it is easy enough to draw. Maybe I'm gullible, but I tend to believe people until I have a strong enough reason not to do so. If I ever have the time, I may try to find out myself whether I can find openings that allow me to close the position enough to make draws against a bookless Komodo playing Black.
"Father"'s draw rate is below 5% IIRC, and he often posts won games on time (lag) from lost, but pretty locked positions, which resolve with 50 move rule or Contempt. I don't remember any single clear win of him in all these years. He still overperforms his rating, but by 200-300 ELO points, not 800. And the win claim... I would be surprised to see even Carlsen or Nakamura in these conditions getting a single win in a short match.
If they just played ten games after getting the program, then I agree with you. But if they can try out a hundred different openings first to see which ones Komodo misplays badly, then it's a different story. MP unpredictibility might save Komodo, but maybe not. I remember one private game GM Lenderman played against Komodo at my home under similar conditions; Komodo made a serious opening error about move 5 after which there was almost no chance of a Black win, although Komodo did hold the draw.
It would be also interesting to play 10 Chess960 games versus GM Nakamura with no pieces handicap he will accept a time handicap of At 2' + 2'' vs 6'+ 6''. I spoke with him a week ago since he is my long time friend since we used to play when hw was only 9 years old back in MA.

PS: This will be a great chance to promote Komodo, since GM Nakamura was the last Chess960 Champion since the tournament was stopped and no longer promoted at Aegon.

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George
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Re: Return Match for Komodo

Post by George » Wed Aug 10, 2016 6:08 pm

lkaufman wrote:
Laskos wrote:
lkaufman wrote:
Laskos wrote:
lkaufman wrote:[

Ok, my I7 laptop which is nearly 2 years old gets about 4100 knps, so that's another handicap. Still, even with five to one time odds, no ponder, White every game, no opening book, and slow hardware you did well to get some points with equal material. Maybe it's not too hard to make draws with White under these conditions if you pick the right openings, I haven't really researched this question.
Larry, come on.
At 2' + 2'' vs 10'+ 10'', 5-fold time handicap, I already scored a single win, and drew 3 or 4 out of 10 games.
In those conditions, it's a 2800-2900 human performance.
Well, just by math, you are right, and this should be impossible. However we already know from the games posted by the player using the handle "father" that with enough trial and error, you can find openings that will result in a sufficiently locked position to get draws sometimes. In the present case, I'm inclined to believe that he has tried out enough openings to find the ones that Komodo (without a book and little time) will permit to reach closed positions, where it is easy enough to draw. Maybe I'm gullible, but I tend to believe people until I have a strong enough reason not to do so. If I ever have the time, I may try to find out myself whether I can find openings that allow me to close the position enough to make draws against a bookless Komodo playing Black.
"Father"'s draw rate is below 5% IIRC, and he often posts won games on time (lag) from lost, but pretty locked positions, which resolve with 50 move rule or Contempt. I don't remember any single clear win of him in all these years. He still overperforms his rating, but by 200-300 ELO points, not 800. And the win claim... I would be surprised to see even Carlsen or Nakamura in these conditions getting a single win in a short match.
If they just played ten games after getting the program, then I agree with you. But if they can try out a hundred different openings first to see which ones Komodo misplays badly, then it's a different story. MP unpredictibility might save Komodo, but maybe not. I remember one private game GM Lenderman played against Komodo at my home under similar conditions; Komodo made a serious opening error about move 5 after which there was almost no chance of a Black win, although Komodo did hold the draw.
It would be also interesting to play 10 Chess960 games versus GM Nakamura with no pieces handicap he will accept a time handicap of At 2' + 2'' vs 6'+ 6''. I spoke with him a week ago since he is my long time friend since we used to play when he was only 9 years old back in MA.

PS: This will be a great chance to promote Komodo, since GM Nakamura was the last Chess960 Champion, since the tournament was stopped and no longer promoted at Aegon.

lkaufman
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Re: Return Match for Komodo

Post by lkaufman » Wed Aug 10, 2016 6:54 pm

George wrote:
lkaufman wrote:
Laskos wrote:
lkaufman wrote:
Laskos wrote:
lkaufman wrote:[

Ok, my I7 laptop which is nearly 2 years old gets about 4100 knps, so that's another handicap. Still, even with five to one time odds, no ponder, White every game, no opening book, and slow hardware you did well to get some points with equal material. Maybe it's not too hard to make draws with White under these conditions if you pick the right openings, I haven't really researched this question.
Larry, come on.
At 2' + 2'' vs 10'+ 10'', 5-fold time handicap, I already scored a single win, and drew 3 or 4 out of 10 games.
In those conditions, it's a 2800-2900 human performance.
Well, just by math, you are right, and this should be impossible. However we already know from the games posted by the player using the handle "father" that with enough trial and error, you can find openings that will result in a sufficiently locked position to get draws sometimes. In the present case, I'm inclined to believe that he has tried out enough openings to find the ones that Komodo (without a book and little time) will permit to reach closed positions, where it is easy enough to draw. Maybe I'm gullible, but I tend to believe people until I have a strong enough reason not to do so. If I ever have the time, I may try to find out myself whether I can find openings that allow me to close the position enough to make draws against a bookless Komodo playing Black.
"Father"'s draw rate is below 5% IIRC, and he often posts won games on time (lag) from lost, but pretty locked positions, which resolve with 50 move rule or Contempt. I don't remember any single clear win of him in all these years. He still overperforms his rating, but by 200-300 ELO points, not 800. And the win claim... I would be surprised to see even Carlsen or Nakamura in these conditions getting a single win in a short match.
If they just played ten games after getting the program, then I agree with you. But if they can try out a hundred different openings first to see which ones Komodo misplays badly, then it's a different story. MP unpredictibility might save Komodo, but maybe not. I remember one private game GM Lenderman played against Komodo at my home under similar conditions; Komodo made a serious opening error about move 5 after which there was almost no chance of a Black win, although Komodo did hold the draw.
It would be also interesting to play 10 Chess960 games versus GM Nakamura with no pieces handicap he will accept a time handicap of At 2' + 2'' vs 6'+ 6''. I spoke with him a week ago since he is my long time friend since we used to play when hw was only 9 years old back in MA.

PS: This will be a great chance to promote Komodo, since GM Nakamura was the last Chess960 Champion since the tournament was stopped and no longer promoted at Aegon.
At chess960 the time handicap needed would be much greater than for normal chess, since the human has no prep to rely on. Maybe 90' + 3" vs 3' + 1" vs. Nakamura would be reasonable, although Kai will surely tell us that even that greatly favors Komodo. Of course we would be glad to play such a match if it doesn't cost us too much.
Komodo rules!

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Nordlandia
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Re: Return Match for Komodo

Post by Nordlandia » Wed Aug 10, 2016 9:15 pm

Komodo vs Carslen is something we want to witness.

Carlsen don't like playing engines unfortunately.

Lyudmil Tsvetkov
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Re: Return Match for Komodo

Post by Lyudmil Tsvetkov » Thu Aug 11, 2016 6:14 am

Not worth answering, but just to note:

1. Komodo is largely benefited by the fact that it plays with contempt=80. This is like knowing it is playing vs a human, in the same way I know I am playing vs an engine, as well as some of Komodo's weak spots.

2. Looking at the posted won game with equal material, if you look carefully, on move 28... Komodo plays Qc5 with an evaluation of 0.59cps, and on the very next move, after Rf6 sacrifice (obviously unexpected for the engine), Komodo score is 5.63. At that very short TC, Komodo simply made a blunder, what is there so difficult to understand, engines also make blunders?

3. At some point I will myself upgrade to a much speedier system, at least 64 cores, it simply does not quite make sense to upgrade from 4 to 16 or 24 cores for an elo boost of 70-130 points. Will not feel the difference.

4. 5-fold time advantage is indeed huge.

5. Please do not get me angry, or otherwise I will flood the forum with Komodo-won games, as well post some where I am giving the engine a pawn handicap. :)

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M ANSARI
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Re: Return Match for Komodo

Post by M ANSARI » Thu Aug 11, 2016 9:59 am

Lyudmil Tsvetkov wrote:Not worth answering, but just to note:

1. Komodo is largely benefited by the fact that it plays with contempt=80. This is like knowing it is playing vs a human, in the same way I know I am playing vs an engine, as well as some of Komodo's weak spots.

2. Looking at the posted won game with equal material, if you look carefully, on move 28... Komodo plays Qc5 with an evaluation of 0.59cps, and on the very next move, after Rf6 sacrifice (obviously unexpected for the engine), Komodo score is 5.63. At that very short TC, Komodo simply made a blunder, what is there so difficult to understand, engines also make blunders?

3. At some point I will myself upgrade to a much speedier system, at least 64 cores, it simply does not quite make sense to upgrade from 4 to 16 or 24 cores for an elo boost of 70-130 points. Will not feel the difference.

4. 5-fold time advantage is indeed huge.

5. Please do not get me angry, or otherwise I will flood the forum with Komodo-won games, as well post some where I am giving the engine a pawn handicap. :)

Wow ... you really are a chess GOD !!! You must be at least 3200 ELO strength. It is unfortunate to have such a chess genius like you hidden from the rest of the world!

I tell you what ... as a contribution the world of Chess, I am willing to help you in getting a super computer system free. I am willing to pay in full a brand new powerful computer for you ... if you are willing to take on Komodo 10 in controlled conditions, where cheating is not possible. If you get one single win the computer is yours ... for free. I see this as a win win situation. You win a brand new computer to further your chess talents, and the chess world gains by uncovering a hidden chess Genius. What do you say?

Lyudmil Tsvetkov
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Joined: Tue Jun 12, 2012 10:41 am

Re: Return Match for Komodo

Post by Lyudmil Tsvetkov » Thu Aug 11, 2016 1:56 pm

M ANSARI wrote:
Lyudmil Tsvetkov wrote:Not worth answering, but just to note:

1. Komodo is largely benefited by the fact that it plays with contempt=80. This is like knowing it is playing vs a human, in the same way I know I am playing vs an engine, as well as some of Komodo's weak spots.

2. Looking at the posted won game with equal material, if you look carefully, on move 28... Komodo plays Qc5 with an evaluation of 0.59cps, and on the very next move, after Rf6 sacrifice (obviously unexpected for the engine), Komodo score is 5.63. At that very short TC, Komodo simply made a blunder, what is there so difficult to understand, engines also make blunders?

3. At some point I will myself upgrade to a much speedier system, at least 64 cores, it simply does not quite make sense to upgrade from 4 to 16 or 24 cores for an elo boost of 70-130 points. Will not feel the difference.

4. 5-fold time advantage is indeed huge.

5. Please do not get me angry, or otherwise I will flood the forum with Komodo-won games, as well post some where I am giving the engine a pawn handicap. :)

Wow ... you really are a chess GOD !!! You must be at least 3200 ELO strength. It is unfortunate to have such a chess genius like you hidden from the rest of the world!

I tell you what ... as a contribution the world of Chess, I am willing to help you in getting a super computer system free. I am willing to pay in full a brand new powerful computer for you ... if you are willing to take on Komodo 10 in controlled conditions, where cheating is not possible. If you get one single win the computer is yours ... for free. I see this as a win win situation. You win a brand new computer to further your chess talents, and the chess world gains by uncovering a hidden chess Genius. What do you say?
Man, you are rather cheap.

Match will happen at some point, only precondition is that Komodo gets some 300 elo stronger, so that the match will be meaningful. :)


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M ANSARI
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Re: Return Match for Komodo

Post by M ANSARI » Thu Aug 11, 2016 8:38 pm


It is one thing to do this when you are trying to fool the general population as they don't know much about computer chess ... but to do it on a computer chess forum ... well that just is an insult to human intelligence.

I especially liked the reasoning the neurosurgeon gave when Ivanchuck challenged him to a chess game so that he can prove he knows how to play chess ... "not interesting as it would be child's play". :D

I think we have a very similar case here, with very similar trash talk.

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