World Computer Chess Championship

Discussion of computer chess matches and engine tournaments.

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Ovyron
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Re: World Computer Chess Championship

Post by Ovyron » Sat Feb 24, 2018 7:42 pm

Guenther wrote:Well there is not a single serious tournament online with titles and prize money, because it would be a cheat fest. (and was several times already)
Have you missed lichess's Titled Tournaments? They only allow known titled players to participate, and they didn't feature any cheating.

I don't know what do you call "serious", but these tournaments have been won by Magnus Carlsen himself (who donated the prize money back to lichess), so at the very least those tournaments have feaured the strongest player in the world (unlike the WCCC), and any other titled player of any strength would have been welcome.

Who knows if it's the future? These has just started, but I could imagine FIDE hosting some WC where all participants do it from their home. Though it would lack Nelson's spectacle. Or maybe the spectacle is there, players are just requested so stream their face via webcam for reactions and drama.

I'm afraid some changes don't happen just because people in charge are old people that want to hang on to old ways no matter what, and that the only way to progress is to replace them with new blood.
Great spirits have always encountered violent opposition from mediocre minds.

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Ovyron
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Re: World Computer Chess Championship

Post by Ovyron » Sat Feb 24, 2018 7:54 pm

Nelson Hernandez wrote: to move pieces on a chessboard when it can all be done over the Internet. But getting the top two programmers to face each other down would be loads of fun for people in the computer chess niche. No stand-ins or "operators" allowed, either--only the programmers themselves would do. Dressed in dark suits with skinny 1950s neckties. With live video for us to watch on the Internet.
Something that hasn't been seen yet is chess robots arms playing against each other. I've only seen them against humans.

So I imagine there would be interest in seeing robotic arms developed by each side powered by the chess engines that allow them to choose their move, with the programmers of the engines standing on their side watching the game.

Like this:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=txXolEyMex8

But with robots on each side of the board, and human reactions on both sides of the board.

I think a big problem so far is that chess engines are faceless, so it's hard to relate to them. For Jeopardy, IBM Watson had an avatar in the actual world that was there for people to see, that was completely unnecessary but gave a presence that chess engines lack and that is necessary if we want the audience to engage with engines like they do with people.

Stockfish has had so many developers over the years that it's hard to know who would be best to play the moves on the board, though Tord or Marco would be obvious choices, my claim is that saying "this Robotic Arm is Stockfish and it can play the moves on the board without needing an operator", with a Stockfish developer on its side, with the claim that those robots are playing the strongest possible chess in the planet, and in history, would be quite the espectacle and would get the general public highly interested in a WCCC.
Great spirits have always encountered violent opposition from mediocre minds.

mjlef
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Re: World Computer Chess Championship

Post by mjlef » Sat Feb 24, 2018 11:57 pm

leavenfish wrote:Mark....not sure why you are letting yourself get drawn into this tired old debate. But to each his own.

Meanwhile, there has not been a Komodo update made available to subscribers in 7 MONTHS...and my subscriptions expires in 8 days.

Will you be providing an update (any update) in the next week? :cry:
I responded to your other post in another section here: http://talkchess.com/forum/viewtopic.ph ... 67&t=66553

leavenfish
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Re: World Computer Chess Championship

Post by leavenfish » Sun Feb 25, 2018 12:41 am

and I thank you for that and the offer. :)

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Rebel
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Re: World Computer Chess Championship

Post by Rebel » Sun Feb 25, 2018 10:03 am

jdart wrote:
As for programs or authors with dubious histories, you need to look forward and not behind. Welcome all applicants. Subject all or none closed sourced entries to 3rd party review (do not single people/entries out), and if so only the source of the current work being entered. Leave the past in the past.
Indeed, most authors have moved on. Rybka/Fritz supposedly has a new code base. Fire used to be an Ippolit derivative, but is no longer. Houdini, who knows? But clearly Houdini 6 is far removed from early versions.

--Jon
Would be nice but only with a correction from the past. Remember the Fabien letter to the ICGA what triggered the R/F drama.

The evidence alleges that by using and deriving code, data and structure from Fruit 2.1, Vasik Rajlich was able to make dramatic and huge progress with "his" program Rybka to the detriment of his fellow competitors. In our view this has made competitions involving Rybka grossly unfair.

As chess programmers we find this overwhelming evidence compelling. We believe Rybka is a Fruit derivative albeit an advanced one.


In other words, won't happen.

Vizvezdenec
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Re: World Computer Chess Championship

Post by Vizvezdenec » Sun Feb 25, 2018 11:07 am

I don't really know how +200 elo engine can be a "derivative".
It's like... All engines are derivatives of Crafty, Fruit, Stockfish in some ways. If someone takes stockfish code and improves it by 200 elo, well, it's not stockfish anymore either way.

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Re: World Computer Chess Championship

Post by Rebel » Sun Feb 25, 2018 4:27 pm

Vizvezdenec wrote:I don't really know how +200 elo engine can be a "derivative".
It's like... All engines are derivatives of Crafty, Fruit, Stockfish in some ways. If someone takes stockfish code and improves it by 200 elo, well, it's not stockfish anymore either way.
As you can read in the snippet of my previous post one reason the ICGA insists participants to have written their code from scratch is that programmers have complained Rybka had an unfair advantage by starting from Fruit, which BTW did not even happen. So no derivatives allowed, unfair competition.

It's crazy to see an organization to promote computer chess has become an obstacle to progress. The world has changed, everyone has moved on except for the ICGA that still wants to live in the previous century with outdated rules.

egiovannotti
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Re: World Computer Chess Championship

Post by egiovannotti » Sun Feb 25, 2018 4:43 pm

It happened with Komodo in the final of TCEC 10, it was unfair that they did not allow an update when it was clear that something was wrong in Komodo, but there were some rules and they can not be ignored. In the same way, there were some rules in WCCC and Rybka could not ignore them, even if they were unfair they had to be fulfilled in order to compete.

leavenfish
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Re: World Computer Chess Championship

Post by leavenfish » Sun Feb 25, 2018 5:14 pm

Me, I like discussion...but on this I don't want to get sucked into this debate which goes back years. Anyone can google the details if they wish.

What I do wonder....why do Stockfish and Houdini never participate? Are they...or are they afraid to be discovered as 'derivatives'??

When 2 of the top 3 engines do not play....again, it's like me holding a tourney in my backyard, getting a pretty decent GM to participate, but...be it because of the prize money, travel restrictions or whatever, only have a few other players that are no where near as good as....really even the 1 GM that participates....and calling the winner the 'World Champion'. It is what it is...but it is silly...a paper title and everybody knows it in their heart of hearts.

Since every competitor gets to run on whatever hardware they chose...it is a bit like software (A) that is not quite as good as another software (B) and/or which has a better opening book....can play on souped up hardware vs less good hardware for B. A can win the battle of....well, really it becomes which self contained computer works better, not which engine (the software) performs best.

IMHO, if this "Championship" is BYOH (Bring Your Own Hardware)....when you DO NOT sell or put it out for public consumption with hardware included...one in the end is just attempting to 'buy a title'. Maybe only the Mephisto's or Chess Genius's or Cetrine by Novag of the world should truly be allowed to participate here?? :wink:

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Harvey Williamson
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Re: World Computer Chess Championship

Post by Harvey Williamson » Sun Feb 25, 2018 5:46 pm

leavenfish wrote: What I do wonder....why do Stockfish and Houdini never participate? Are they...or are they afraid to be discovered as 'derivatives'??
Stockfish makes no secret of the fact it is a derivative of Glaurung. This does not stop it entering the WC.

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