How powerful is the Queen compared to 2 Rooks ?

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Chessqueen
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How powerful is the Queen compared to 2 Rooks ?

Post by Chessqueen » Sat Jan 26, 2019 1:18 am

I always wondered if two Rooks were better than a Queen, so I decided to have SF10 play by itself, of course this is only one game but considering that the side with the Queen is the Black side I am convinced that a Queen is more powerful than two Rooks.


Chessqueen
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Re: How powerful is the Queen compared to 2 Rooks ?

Post by Chessqueen » Sat Jan 26, 2019 1:37 am

Even with an extra pawn the two Rooks can NOT win if the Queen is on the White side:


Chessqueen
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Re: How powerful is the Queen compared to 2 Rooks ?

Post by Chessqueen » Sat Jan 26, 2019 4:59 am

Chessqueen wrote:
Sat Jan 26, 2019 1:37 am

Even with an extra pawn the two Rooks can NOT win if the Queen is on the White side. Based on these two tests, I believe that the value of the Rook should NOT be 5 on any program, but more like 4.75 and the value of the Queen should be raised to at least 9.50. I do not know if these suggested values improve the playing strength of any program or not, but they are more realistic

Based on these two tests, I believe that the value of the Rook should NOT be 5 on any program, but more like 4.75 and the value of the Queen should be raised to at least 9.50. I do not know if these suggested values improve the playing strength of any program or not, but they are more realistic.

jorose
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Re: How powerful is the Queen compared to 2 Rooks ?

Post by jorose » Sat Jan 26, 2019 7:28 am

That's not how chess works.
In your position where one side gives up the queen and the other side gives up both rooks there are a number of factors which are very favorable for the queen. Eg there are still many minors on the board, there are no open files and it is harder to get the rooks actively in the game so the side with the queen starts with an initiative.
Your positions favor the queen far more than most real world examples would.
Pieces do not exist in a vacuum.
-Jonathan

Chessqueen
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Re: How powerful is the Queen compared to 2 Rooks ?

Post by Chessqueen » Sat Jan 26, 2019 12:15 pm

jorose wrote:
Sat Jan 26, 2019 7:28 am
That's not how chess works.
In your position where one side gives up the queen and the other side gives up both rooks there are a number of factors which are very favorable for the queen. Eg there are still many minors on the board, there are no open files and it is harder to get the rooks actively in the game so the side with the queen starts with an initiative.
Your positions favor the queen far more than most real world examples would.
Pieces do not exist in a vacuum.
Of course we all know that in the endgame stage when both rooks are connected two Rooks versus a Queen is almost even, but there are lots og games that in the first 18 moves or 20 the Queen is exchange for the two rooks which eliminate lot of threats from the Queen. But from the initial position the Queen also has to find the best positions which are many, and all the the two rooks have to do is get connected. Here as you will notice GM Magnus Carlsen is Magnus Carlsen after all, one of the best endgame player during the last 10 years.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5jo0wLVAErc

It also depends how fast the two Rooks get connected as i mentioned, here is another self played game by SF10


Chessqueen
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Re: How powerful is the Queen compared to 2 Rooks ?

Post by Chessqueen » Sat Jan 26, 2019 8:25 pm

Chessqueen wrote:
Sat Jan 26, 2019 12:15 pm
jorose wrote:
Sat Jan 26, 2019 7:28 am
That's not how chess works.
In your position where one side gives up the queen and the other side gives up both rooks there are a number of factors which are very favorable for the queen. Eg there are still many minors on the board, there are no open files and it is harder to get the rooks actively in the game so the side with the queen starts with an initiative.
Your positions favor the queen far more than most real world examples would.
Pieces do not exist in a vacuum.
Of course we all know that in the endgame stage when both rooks are connected two Rooks versus a Queen is almost even, but there are lots og games that in the first 18 moves or 20 the Queen is exchange for the two rooks which eliminate lot of threats from the Queen. But from the initial position the Queen also has to find the best positions which are many, and all the the two rooks have to do is get connected. Here as you will notice GM Magnus Carlsen is Magnus Carlsen after all, one of the best endgame player during the last 10 years.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5jo0wLVAErc

Here is one of the most amazing game ever played where two Rooks are sacrificed but securing a beautiful mate!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z_EFtXMozFk

It also depends how fast the two Rooks get connected as I mentioned, here is another self played game by SF10


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Nordlandia
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Re: How powerful is the Queen compared to 2 Rooks ?

Post by Nordlandia » Sat Jan 26, 2019 9:04 pm

I think this starting position is more fair for two rooks.




Chessqueen
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Re: How powerful is the Queen compared to 2 Rooks ?

Post by Chessqueen » Sun Jan 27, 2019 4:37 am

Nordlandia wrote:
Sat Jan 26, 2019 9:04 pm
I think this starting position is more fair for two rooks.

All that you have to do it go into Game and click on Demo, from the starting position that you posted.

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Nordlandia
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Re: How powerful is the Queen compared to 2 Rooks ?

Post by Nordlandia » Sun Jan 27, 2019 4:37 pm

Chessqueen: A rook value of 4¾ is is my preferred value over 4½.

Pawn = 1.0
Knight = 3.0
Bishop = 3.25 (per Fischer)
Rook = 4.75
Queen = 9.5 ?
---
King ~ 3.00 in the endgame.
---

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Graham Banks
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Re: How powerful is the Queen compared to 2 Rooks ?

Post by Graham Banks » Sun Jan 27, 2019 8:58 pm

Chessqueen wrote:
Sat Jan 26, 2019 1:18 am
...I am convinced that a Queen is more powerful than two Rooks
From my observations over many years of watching engines playing, in general the queen has the edge.
My email addresses:
gbanksnz at gmail.com
gbanksnz at yahoo.co.nz

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