How powerful is the Queen compared to 2 Rooks ?

Discussion of computer chess matches and engine tournaments.

Moderators: hgm, Harvey Williamson, bob

Forum rules
This textbox is used to restore diagrams posted with the [d] tag before the upgrade.
Dann Corbit
Posts: 9415
Joined: Wed Mar 08, 2006 7:57 pm
Location: Redmond, WA USA
Contact:

Re: How powerful is the Queen compared to 2 Rooks ?

Post by Dann Corbit » Mon Feb 04, 2019 9:23 pm

Chessqueen wrote:
Mon Feb 04, 2019 8:59 pm
hgm wrote:
Mon Feb 04, 2019 4:37 pm
Why do you say it trains 'so much'? It doesn't train more than Stockfish, does it? Especially if you take into account that it is about 1000 times slower than Stockfish, in terms of positions per second it sees during training. (Or perhaps only 100 times, if Stockfish is not running on a high-end machine.) IIRC the AlphaZero training took 4 hours on 5000 TPUs (which is 1250 machines like the one it was playing on.) That would have been 5000 hours on a single such machine. But taking the factor 100 in nps into account, that would correspond to 50 hours of Stockfish tuning. Stockfish development has taken orders of magnitude more than 50 hours tuning time.

And of course Stockfish or Komodo did not start with zero knowledge. It was hard-coded in them which were good and which were bad captures, or that it makes sense to refute moves from the same position in the same way. AlphaZero initially had no clue that a Queen was worth more than a Pawn. It didn't even know whether a Queen was an asset or a liability. A substantial part of the training was used just to acquire the knowledge that is hardcoded in every conventional chess engine.
I understand that Alpha Zero does not have extensive knowledge Like Komodo, or SF10, but I refused to believe that it had Zero knowledge about the worth of the pieces and it only had knowledge about in what direction each piece move, otherwise in the first few in the first few games it probably trade its Queen for a pawn, or a rook or any other pieces that are much inferior, and the same goes for the Rook, that during the first few games the Rook was traded for a Bishop, Knight or even pawn. The only way that I would believe that it had absolutely zero knowledge of the worth of each piece is if I see the first few games.
The only information given was the rules of the game. It played games and deduced from wins and losses the things that seem important.
The training games are exactly for this purpose. If you want to understand it clearly you can read the paper.
http://science.sciencemag.org/content/362/6419/1140
You can also read simplified descriptions like this:
https://www.newyorker.com/science/eleme ... -its-games
https://www.theringer.com/tech/2018/11/ ... nce-future
Or the wiki:
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/AlphaZero
Taking ideas is not a vice, it is a virtue. We have another word for this. It is called learning.
But sharing ideas is an even greater virtue. We have another word for this. It is called teaching.

User avatar
hgm
Posts: 23073
Joined: Fri Mar 10, 2006 9:06 am
Location: Amsterdam
Full name: H G Muller
Contact:

Re: How powerful is the Queen compared to 2 Rooks ?

Post by hgm » Mon Feb 04, 2019 9:35 pm

Chessqueen wrote:
Mon Feb 04, 2019 8:59 pm
I understand that Alpha Zero does not have extensive knowledge Like Komodo, or SF10, but I refused to believe that it had Zero knowledge about the worth of the pieces and it only had knowledge about in what direction each piece move, otherwise in the first few in the first few games it probably trade its Queen for a pawn, or a rook or any other pieces that are much inferior, and the same goes for the Rook, that during the first few games the Rook was traded for a Bishop, Knight or even pawn. The only way that I would believe that it had absolutely zero knowledge of the worth of each piece is if I see the first few games.
Well, so you know zilch, and refuse to believe what those who are knowledgeable tell you. I see a bright future for you... :roll:

The early training games of AlphaZero have not been released. But Leela Chess Zero is a public project built according to the published description of AlphaZero, which makes it almost an exact copy (except it is designed to run on a PC with graphics card, rather than on Google proprietry hardware). It is now also similar in strength to SF10. I am pretty sure someone could give you the early training games of LC0, and if not, you could download it and generate such games yourself. Of course they look exactly as you describe: just games of one random mover against another, often squandering a Queen for a Pawn, or for nothing at all.

Chessqueen
Posts: 395
Joined: Wed Sep 05, 2018 12:16 am
Full name: Nancy M Pichardo

Re: How powerful is the Queen compared to 2 Rooks ?

Post by Chessqueen » Tue Feb 05, 2019 1:43 pm

hgm wrote:
Mon Feb 04, 2019 9:35 pm
Chessqueen wrote:
Mon Feb 04, 2019 8:59 pm
I understand that Alpha Zero does not have extensive knowledge Like Komodo, or SF10, but I refused to believe that it had Zero knowledge about the worth of the pieces and it only had knowledge about in what direction each piece move, otherwise in the first few in the first few games it probably trade its Queen for a pawn, or a rook or any other pieces that are much inferior, and the same goes for the Rook, that during the first few games the Rook was traded for a Bishop, Knight or even pawn. The only way that I would believe that it had absolutely zero knowledge of the worth of each piece is if I see the first few games.
Well, so you know zilch, and refuse to believe what those who are knowledgeable tell you. I see a bright future for you... :roll:

The early training games of AlphaZero have not been released. But Leela Chess Zero is a public project built according to the published description of AlphaZero, which makes it almost an exact copy (except it is designed to run on a PC with graphics card, rather than on Google proprietry hardware). It is now also similar in strength to SF10. I am pretty sure someone could give you the early training games of LC0, and if not, you could download it and generate such games yourself. Of course they look exactly as you describe: just games of one random mover against another, often squandering a Queen for a Pawn, or for nothing at all.
You only kow what you have read about AlphaZero so far. You do NOT know all the programming codes used to program AlphaZero, therefore, you know Zilch about how exactly Alpha Zero algorithm works. You claimed to be very knowledgeable or implied in your statement, but you probably only know how to program in one or two computer language. If you really want to know what type of knowledge I have which you confused with simply having information about how Alpha Zero works. type your cell and I will copy and paste and text you all the computer language that I took in the university which is more than 5 altogether. Surprise I am NOT as un knowledgeable as you thought or assume Mr: know it all. I might be old but I still have a copy of my transcript and excellent grade.

User avatar
hgm
Posts: 23073
Joined: Fri Mar 10, 2006 9:06 am
Location: Amsterdam
Full name: H G Muller
Contact:

Re: How powerful is the Queen compared to 2 Rooks ?

Post by hgm » Tue Feb 05, 2019 2:49 pm

Ah, so it is just old-fashioned paranoia? You know that the AlphaZero article says it started with nothing but the rules, but you refuse to believe it, because in your world view they are all lying bastards at Google/Deep Mind, and whatever they publish could not possibly be true? Is that it? And despite all the computer languages you master, you did not bother to check out the Leela Chess Zero code, to find this hidden initial knowledge you imagine to be there?

It seems to me that being fluent in even a hundred programming languages would not make up for the inability to trust others. So no, it is of no interest to me (or anyone else, for that matter) what programming languages they taught you.

User avatar
Guenther
Posts: 2731
Joined: Wed Oct 01, 2008 4:33 am
Location: Regensburg, Germany
Full name: Guenther Simon
Contact:

Re: How powerful is the Queen compared to 2 Rooks ?

Post by Guenther » Tue Feb 05, 2019 2:53 pm

Chessqueen wrote:
Tue Feb 05, 2019 1:43 pm
hgm wrote:
Mon Feb 04, 2019 9:35 pm
Chessqueen wrote:
Mon Feb 04, 2019 8:59 pm
I understand that Alpha Zero does not have extensive knowledge Like Komodo, or SF10, but I refused to believe that it had Zero knowledge about the worth of the pieces and it only had knowledge about in what direction each piece move, otherwise in the first few in the first few games it probably trade its Queen for a pawn, or a rook or any other pieces that are much inferior, and the same goes for the Rook, that during the first few games the Rook was traded for a Bishop, Knight or even pawn. The only way that I would believe that it had absolutely zero knowledge of the worth of each piece is if I see the first few games.
Well, so you know zilch, and refuse to believe what those who are knowledgeable tell you. I see a bright future for you... :roll:

The early training games of AlphaZero have not been released. But Leela Chess Zero is a public project built according to the published description of AlphaZero, which makes it almost an exact copy (except it is designed to run on a PC with graphics card, rather than on Google proprietry hardware). It is now also similar in strength to SF10. I am pretty sure someone could give you the early training games of LC0, and if not, you could download it and generate such games yourself. Of course they look exactly as you describe: just games of one random mover against another, often squandering a Queen for a Pawn, or for nothing at all.
You only kow what you have read about AlphaZero so far. You do NOT know all the programming codes used to program AlphaZero, therefore, you know Zilch about how exactly Alpha Zero algorithm works. You claimed to be very knowledgeable or implied in your statement, but you probably only know how to program in one or two computer language. If you really want to know what type of knowledge I have which you confused with simply having information about how Alpha Zero works. type your cell and I will copy and paste and text you all the computer language that I took in the university which is more than 5 altogether. Surprise I am NOT as un knowledgeable as you thought or assume Mr: know it all. I might be old but I still have a copy of my transcript and excellent grade.
you are hopeless pichy...

each early NN (if built from scratch unlike LC0 NN 40) has no knowledge except the rules of chess, when the training starts and it blunders away pieces left and right, this is not different from LC0 to A0

just a few examples from a very early LC0 NN 10:
(note that this are match games and training games are even more weird, because of more randomness through 'temperature' setting)
http://lczero.org/match_game/143009
http://lczero.org/match_game/143010

early LC0 NN 30
http://lczero.org/match_game/1118277
http://lczero.org/match_game/1118278

Chessqueen
Posts: 395
Joined: Wed Sep 05, 2018 12:16 am
Full name: Nancy M Pichardo

Re: How powerful is the Queen compared to 2 Rooks ?

Post by Chessqueen » Tue Feb 05, 2019 3:08 pm

hgm wrote:
Tue Feb 05, 2019 2:49 pm
Ah, so it is just old-fashioned paranoia? You know that the AlphaZero article says it started with nothing but the rules, but you refuse to believe it, because in your world view they are all lying bastards at Google/Deep Mind, and whatever they publish could not possibly be true? Is that it? And despite all the computer languages you master, you did not bother to check out the Leela Chess Zero code, to find this hidden initial knowledge you imagine to be there?

It seems to me that being fluent in even a hundred programming languages would not make up for the inability to trust others. So no, it is of no interest to me (or anyone else, for that matter) what programming languages they taught you.
You still do not get the point. When you stated about having knowledge, you are confusing knowledge with information about certain subject or news. If a person did not have time to read all the information about any given matter or subject it does NOT make that particular person, a Zilch or un knowledgeable, it just simply make that person un informed.

Chessqueen
Posts: 395
Joined: Wed Sep 05, 2018 12:16 am
Full name: Nancy M Pichardo

Re: How powerful is the Queen compared to 2 Rooks ?

Post by Chessqueen » Tue Feb 05, 2019 3:17 pm

Guenther wrote:
Tue Feb 05, 2019 2:53 pm
Chessqueen wrote:
Tue Feb 05, 2019 1:43 pm
hgm wrote:
Mon Feb 04, 2019 9:35 pm
Chessqueen wrote:
Mon Feb 04, 2019 8:59 pm
I understand that Alpha Zero does not have extensive knowledge Like Komodo, or SF10, but I refused to believe that it had Zero knowledge about the worth of the pieces and it only had knowledge about in what direction each piece move, otherwise in the first few in the first few games it probably trade its Queen for a pawn, or a rook or any other pieces that are much inferior, and the same goes for the Rook, that during the first few games the Rook was traded for a Bishop, Knight or even pawn. The only way that I would believe that it had absolutely zero knowledge of the worth of each piece is if I see the first few games.
Well, so you know zilch, and refuse to believe what those who are knowledgeable tell you. I see a bright future for you... :roll:

The early training games of AlphaZero have not been released. But Leela Chess Zero is a public project built according to the published description of AlphaZero, which makes it almost an exact copy (except it is designed to run on a PC with graphics card, rather than on Google proprietry hardware). It is now also similar in strength to SF10. I am pretty sure someone could give you the early training games of LC0, and if not, you could download it and generate such games yourself. Of course they look exactly as you describe: just games of one random mover against another, often squandering a Queen for a Pawn, or for nothing at all.
You only kow what you have read about AlphaZero so far. You do NOT know all the programming codes used to program AlphaZero, therefore, you know Zilch about how exactly Alpha Zero algorithm works. You claimed to be very knowledgeable or implied in your statement, but you probably only know how to program in one or two computer language. If you really want to know what type of knowledge I have which you confused with simply having information about how Alpha Zero works. type your cell and I will copy and paste and text you all the computer language that I took in the university which is more than 5 altogether. Surprise I am NOT as un knowledgeable as you thought or assume Mr: know it all. I might be old but I still have a copy of my transcript and excellent grade.
you are hopeless pichy...

each early NN (if built from scratch unlike LC0 NN 40) has no knowledge except the rules of chess, when the training starts and it blunders away pieces left and right, this is not different from LC0 to A0

just a few examples from a very early LC0 NN 10:
(note that this are match games and training games are even more weird, because of more randomness through 'temperature' setting)
http://lczero.org/match_game/143009
http://lczero.org/match_game/143010

early LC0 NN 30
http://lczero.org/match_game/1118277
http://lczero.org/match_game/1118278
Thanks for those games, Now I am a believer like Saint Thomas :D Now I believe that AZ just like Leela or LCO does not have knowledge of pieces value and it only had knowledge about in what direction each piece move, otherwise in the first few in the first few games it probably trade its Queen for a pawn, or a rook or any other pieces that are much inferior, and the same goes for the Rook, that during the first few games the Rook was traded for a Bishop, Knight or even pawn. The only way that I would believe that it had absolutely zero knowledge of the worth of each piece is if I see the first few games.

Thanks for showing me that, now I am well informed nothing to be confused with knowledge or how smart a person is like the arrogant who accused me of that in the previous post. I guess that also makes me hopeful about something NOT hopeless, are you hopeful of something too ? :mrgreen:

User avatar
hgm
Posts: 23073
Joined: Fri Mar 10, 2006 9:06 am
Location: Amsterdam
Full name: H G Muller
Contact:

Re: How powerful is the Queen compared to 2 Rooks ?

Post by hgm » Tue Feb 05, 2019 3:51 pm

Chessqueen wrote:
Tue Feb 05, 2019 3:08 pm
You still do not get the point. When you stated about having knowledge, you are confusing knowledge with information about certain subject or news. If a person did not have time to read all the information about any given matter or subject it does NOT make that particular person, a Zilch or un knowledgeable, it just simply make that person un informed.
It is you who doesn't get the point; you keep ranting about your own delusions. At no point I claimed that I was knowledgeable, that is just one of those delusions. Of course I was referring to the people at Deep Mind, who concisely told us how AlphaZero worked, which you would have known too when you had bothered to inform yourself instead of blabbering nonsense. You obviously did know zilch about AlphaZero, or you would have known it started from zero knowledge. Of course I did not mean that you did not know how to suck your mother's teats when you were a baby... And it seems the equation "un-informed + big mouth = stupid" is also news to you.

henk2
Posts: 30
Joined: Mon Jan 14, 2019 6:55 am
Full name: Henk Verbaasdonk

Re: How powerful is the Queen compared to 2 Rooks ?

Post by henk2 » Tue Feb 05, 2019 4:44 pm

There have been plenty of genetic algorithm car games where the first few cars were just random. Depending on the settings sometimes without tires even.
example: https://rednuht.org/genetic_walkers/

And after a few (sometimes 1) generations you will be stuck with serviceable cars. And then they will slowly mutate towards a local maximum.(Sometimes absolute maximum)

Why is it so hard to believe A0 started with 0 knowledge?
The first bunch of games will be rough, but then it will get better. And learn from what works and what doesn't.

I think the only difficulty with chess is that it's a very drawish game. While Go is either win or lose. So it's a bit harder to score what's a good result and what's less desireable.

Chessqueen
Posts: 395
Joined: Wed Sep 05, 2018 12:16 am
Full name: Nancy M Pichardo

Re: How powerful is the Queen compared to 2 Rooks ?

Post by Chessqueen » Tue Feb 05, 2019 5:38 pm

hgm wrote:
Mon Feb 04, 2019 9:35 pm
Chessqueen wrote:
Mon Feb 04, 2019 8:59 pm
I understand that Alpha Zero does not have extensive knowledge Like Komodo, or SF10, but I refused to believe that it had Zero knowledge about the worth of the pieces and it only had knowledge about in what direction each piece move, otherwise in the first few in the first few games it probably trade its Queen for a pawn, or a rook or any other pieces that are much inferior, and the same goes for the Rook, that during the first few games the Rook was traded for a Bishop, Knight or even pawn. The only way that I would believe that it had absolutely zero knowledge of the worth of each piece is if I see the first few games.
Well, so you know zilch, and refuse to believe what those who are knowledgeable tell you. I see a bright future for you... :roll:

So you did NOT implied it WOW

Post Reply