LCZero starts with an opening disadvantage..................

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Chessqueen
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LCZero starts with an opening disadvantage..................

Post by Chessqueen » Mon Feb 11, 2019 3:24 pm

Honestly, Leela has the worse opening that I have ever seen in chess, whereas Stockfish and Komodo use opening books that has been proven to be effective, poor LCZero has a great disadvantage even after it has played several thousands of games by itself Leela seems to be opening with a disadvantage otherwise the score could had been in its favor at the moment. Simply look at the last 12 games of Leela. I know that Leela in the middlegame plays like an alien from another planet, even after hundredth of thousand of games the opening repertoire is horrible.
https://tcec.chessdom.com/

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Guenther
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Re: LCZero starts with an opening disadvantage..................

Post by Guenther » Mon Feb 11, 2019 5:58 pm

Chessqueen wrote:
Mon Feb 11, 2019 3:24 pm
Honestly, Leela has the worse opening that I have ever seen in chess, whereas Stockfish and Komodo use opening books that has been proven to be effective, poor LCZero has a great disadvantage even after it has played several thousands of games by itself Leela seems to be opening with a disadvantage otherwise the score could had been in its favor at the moment. Simply look at the last 12 games of Leela. I know that Leela in the middlegame plays like an alien from another planet, even after hundredth of thousand of games the opening repertoire is horrible.
https://tcec.chessdom.com/
I have no clue what you are talking about (pretty sure 99% here think the same) , except that everything what you say is wrong of course.
Is this another ultimate trolling attempt?

TCEC and CCC and pretty much everyone else, uses start positions (nowadays). This means no book of course for SF and other programs.
Actually most people even have the complete opposite opinion that LC0 has a big advantage in the opening due to
its long learning process (this is also wrong IMO, because it does not learn complete openings or positions, but 'micro-patterns'
and I don't believe it is at a big advantage at least, while playing with start positions)

Probably what you think is bad play from LC0 is in reality the given start position, which is played for both programs
from each side. Why you cannot grasp this from looking at the games at the TCEC website, or anywhere is a mystery.
(in the last 12 games LCO has not lost a single game, but won 2 games with White...@TCEC - you live in an obscure
parallel universe it seems...)

Code: Select all

27      LCZero v20.2-32930      40.78   Stockfish 190203        10.13   1-0             68      04:30:31        Pirc defence                                    TCEC win rule           B07     8/4kb2/r7/5p2/3P1N2/7R/4NK2/8 w - - 18 69               06:27:24 on 2019.02.09
28      Stockfish 190203        0.00    LCZero v20.2-32930      -0.02   1/2-1/2         178     05:26:09        Pirc defence                                    SyzygyTB                B07     8/8/8/5K2/8/5R2/5Rpk/5r2 b - - 0 178                    10:59:10 on 2019.02.09
29      LCZero v20.2-32930      21.63   Stockfish 190203        153.20  1-0             54      04:17:24        Dutch                                           TCEC win rule           A80     3r2k1/r6p/pRK1PR1P/P7/8/8/8/8 b - - 2 54                16:26:35 on 2019.02.09
30      Stockfish 190203        0.00    LCZero v20.2-32930      -0.06   1/2-1/2         233     05:54:24        Dutch                                           TCEC draw rule          A80     8/3k4/1Kp3Q1/3p4/3P4/8/8/2q5 w - - 14 234               20:45:14 on 2019.02.09
31      LCZero v20.2-32930      0.04    Stockfish 190203        0.00    1/2-1/2         109     04:38:04        Caro-Kann, advance variation                    SyzygyTB                B12     bR6/P7/kn6/8/5K2/8/8/8 w - - 0 110                      02:40:54 on 2019.02.10
32      Stockfish 190203        0.00    LCZero v20.2-32930      0.03    1/2-1/2         71      04:14:59        Caro-Kann, advance variation                    SyzygyTB                B12     8/4k3/8/R7/P1P1K3/r7/8/8 b - - 0 71                     07:20:14 on 2019.02.10
33      LCZero v20.2-32930      0.01    Stockfish 190203        0.00    1/2-1/2         66      04:09:04        King's Indian, Saemisch, 5...O-O                TCEC draw rule          E81     5R2/2P5/2r5/8/1K6/1P6/P4kp1/8 b - - 10 66               11:36:28 on 2019.02.10
34      Stockfish 190203        0.00    LCZero v20.2-32930      -0.01   1/2-1/2         70      04:13:22        King's Indian, Saemisch, 5...O-O                TCEC draw rule          E81     8/4npk1/3p2p1/2pP2P1/p4P1r/Pp3R2/1P3R2/2K5 w - - 12 71  15:46:49 on 2019.02.10
35      LCZero v20.2-32930      0.02    Stockfish 190203        0.00    1/2-1/2         135     04:58:37        French, Paulsen variation                       SyzygyTB                C10     8/8/3k4/3P4/2p1K3/2n1N3/8/8 w - - 0 136                 20:01:26 on 2019.02.10
36      Stockfish 190203        0.00    LCZero v20.2-32930      -0.01   1/2-1/2         103     04:45:19        French, Paulsen variation                       SyzygyTB                C10     8/8/2k5/1R6/1pP5/8/5K2/6r1 b - - 0 103                  01:01:18 on 2019.02.11
37      LCZero v20.2-32930      0.01    Stockfish 190203        0.00    1/2-1/2         121     04:56:17        Trompovsky attack (Ruth, Opovcensky opening)    TCEC draw rule          A45     5R2/8/1pk5/3r4/8/K1P2Q2/8/1q6 b - - 72 121              05:47:52 on 2019.02.11
38      Stockfish 190203        0.00    LCZero v20.2-32930      -0.03   1/2-1/2         121     04:55:42        Trompovsky attack (Ruth, Opovcensky opening)    3-Fold repetition       A45     b7/8/PbN5/1P1B4/3p4/3K4/5k1p/8 b - - 97 121             10:45:25 on 2019.02.11


Chessqueen
Posts: 395
Joined: Wed Sep 05, 2018 12:16 am
Full name: Nancy M Pichardo

Re: LCZero starts with an opening disadvantage..................

Post by Chessqueen » Mon Feb 11, 2019 9:08 pm

Guenther wrote:
Mon Feb 11, 2019 5:58 pm
Chessqueen wrote:
Mon Feb 11, 2019 3:24 pm
Honestly, Leela has the worse opening that I have ever seen in chess, whereas Stockfish and Komodo use opening books that has been proven to be effective, poor LCZero has a great disadvantage even after it has played several thousands of games by itself Leela seems to be opening with a disadvantage otherwise the score could had been in its favor at the moment. Simply look at the last 12 games of Leela. I know that Leela in the middlegame plays like an alien from another planet, even after hundredth of thousand of games the opening repertoire is horrible.
https://tcec.chessdom.com/
I have no clue what you are talking about (pretty sure 99% here think the same) , except that everything what you say is wrong of course.
Is this another ultimate trolling attempt?

TCEC and CCC and pretty much everyone else, uses start positions (nowadays). This means no book of course for SF and other programs.
Actually most people even have the complete opposite opinion that LC0 has a big advantage in the opening due to
its long learning process (this is also wrong IMO, because it does not learn complete openings or positions, but 'micro-patterns'
and I don't believe it is at a big advantage at least, while playing with start positions)

Probably what you think is bad play from LC0 is in reality the given start position, which is played for both programs
from each side. Why you cannot grasp this from looking at the games at the TCEC website, or anywhere is a mystery.
(in the last 12 games LCO has not lost a single game, but won 2 games with White...@TCEC - you live in an obscure
parallel universe it seems...)

Code: Select all

27      LCZero v20.2-32930      40.78   Stockfish 190203        10.13   1-0             68      04:30:31        Pirc defence                                    TCEC win rule           B07     8/4kb2/r7/5p2/3P1N2/7R/4NK2/8 w - - 18 69               06:27:24 on 2019.02.09
28      Stockfish 190203        0.00    LCZero v20.2-32930      -0.02   1/2-1/2         178     05:26:09        Pirc defence                                    SyzygyTB                B07     8/8/8/5K2/8/5R2/5Rpk/5r2 b - - 0 178                    10:59:10 on 2019.02.09
29      LCZero v20.2-32930      21.63   Stockfish 190203        153.20  1-0             54      04:17:24        Dutch                                           TCEC win rule           A80     3r2k1/r6p/pRK1PR1P/P7/8/8/8/8 b - - 2 54                16:26:35 on 2019.02.09
30      Stockfish 190203        0.00    LCZero v20.2-32930      -0.06   1/2-1/2         233     05:54:24        Dutch                                           TCEC draw rule          A80     8/3k4/1Kp3Q1/3p4/3P4/8/8/2q5 w - - 14 234               20:45:14 on 2019.02.09
31      LCZero v20.2-32930      0.04    Stockfish 190203        0.00    1/2-1/2         109     04:38:04        Caro-Kann, advance variation                    SyzygyTB                B12     bR6/P7/kn6/8/5K2/8/8/8 w - - 0 110                      02:40:54 on 2019.02.10
32      Stockfish 190203        0.00    LCZero v20.2-32930      0.03    1/2-1/2         71      04:14:59        Caro-Kann, advance variation                    SyzygyTB                B12     8/4k3/8/R7/P1P1K3/r7/8/8 b - - 0 71                     07:20:14 on 2019.02.10
33      LCZero v20.2-32930      0.01    Stockfish 190203        0.00    1/2-1/2         66      04:09:04        King's Indian, Saemisch, 5...O-O                TCEC draw rule          E81     5R2/2P5/2r5/8/1K6/1P6/P4kp1/8 b - - 10 66               11:36:28 on 2019.02.10
34      Stockfish 190203        0.00    LCZero v20.2-32930      -0.01   1/2-1/2         70      04:13:22        King's Indian, Saemisch, 5...O-O                TCEC draw rule          E81     8/4npk1/3p2p1/2pP2P1/p4P1r/Pp3R2/1P3R2/2K5 w - - 12 71  15:46:49 on 2019.02.10
35      LCZero v20.2-32930      0.02    Stockfish 190203        0.00    1/2-1/2         135     04:58:37        French, Paulsen variation                       SyzygyTB                C10     8/8/3k4/3P4/2p1K3/2n1N3/8/8 w - - 0 136                 20:01:26 on 2019.02.10
36      Stockfish 190203        0.00    LCZero v20.2-32930      -0.01   1/2-1/2         103     04:45:19        French, Paulsen variation                       SyzygyTB                C10     8/8/2k5/1R6/1pP5/8/5K2/6r1 b - - 0 103                  01:01:18 on 2019.02.11
37      LCZero v20.2-32930      0.01    Stockfish 190203        0.00    1/2-1/2         121     04:56:17        Trompovsky attack (Ruth, Opovcensky opening)    TCEC draw rule          A45     5R2/8/1pk5/3r4/8/K1P2Q2/8/1q6 b - - 72 121              05:47:52 on 2019.02.11
38      Stockfish 190203        0.00    LCZero v20.2-32930      -0.03   1/2-1/2         121     04:55:42        Trompovsky attack (Ruth, Opovcensky opening)    3-Fold repetition       A45     b7/8/PbN5/1P1B4/3p4/3K4/5k1p/8 b - - 97 121             10:45:25 on 2019.02.11

I knew that, I just wanted to see how people like you (know it all) would react. As a matter of fact I made a bet with my friend that you specifically would be the first to come up with a response. Thanks you for helping me win $20.00 :D :mrgreen: :D

Chessqueen
Posts: 395
Joined: Wed Sep 05, 2018 12:16 am
Full name: Nancy M Pichardo

Re: LCZero starts with an opening disadvantage..................

Post by Chessqueen » Mon Feb 11, 2019 11:34 pm

Guenther wrote:
Mon Feb 11, 2019 5:58 pm
Chessqueen wrote:
Mon Feb 11, 2019 3:24 pm
Honestly, Leela has the worse opening that I have ever seen in chess, whereas Stockfish and Komodo use opening books that has been proven to be effective, poor LCZero has a great disadvantage even after it has played several thousands of games by itself Leela seems to be opening with a disadvantage otherwise the score could had been in its favor at the moment. Simply look at the last 12 games of Leela. I know that Leela in the middlegame plays like an alien from another planet, even after hundredth of thousand of games the opening repertoire is horrible.
https://tcec.chessdom.com/
I have no clue what you are talking about (pretty sure 99% here think the same) , except that everything what you say is wrong of course.
Is this another ultimate trolling attempt?

TCEC and CCC and pretty much everyone else, uses start positions (nowadays). This means no book of course for SF and other programs.
Actually most people even have the complete opposite opinion that LC0 has a big advantage in the opening due to
its long learning process (this is also wrong IMO, because it does not learn complete openings or positions, but 'micro-patterns'
and I don't believe it is at a big advantage at least, while playing with start positions)

Probably what you think is bad play from LC0 is in reality the given start position, which is played for both programs
from each side. Why you cannot grasp this from looking at the games at the TCEC website, or anywhere is a mystery.
(in the last 12 games LCO has not lost a single game, but won 2 games with White...@TCEC - you live in an obscure
parallel universe it seems...)

Code: Select all

27      LCZero v20.2-32930      40.78   Stockfish 190203        10.13   1-0             68      04:30:31        Pirc defence                                    TCEC win rule           B07     8/4kb2/r7/5p2/3P1N2/7R/4NK2/8 w - - 18 69               06:27:24 on 2019.02.09
28      Stockfish 190203        0.00    LCZero v20.2-32930      -0.02   1/2-1/2         178     05:26:09        Pirc defence                                    SyzygyTB                B07     8/8/8/5K2/8/5R2/5Rpk/5r2 b - - 0 178                    10:59:10 on 2019.02.09
29      LCZero v20.2-32930      21.63   Stockfish 190203        153.20  1-0             54      04:17:24        Dutch                                           TCEC win rule           A80     3r2k1/r6p/pRK1PR1P/P7/8/8/8/8 b - - 2 54                16:26:35 on 2019.02.09
30      Stockfish 190203        0.00    LCZero v20.2-32930      -0.06   1/2-1/2         233     05:54:24        Dutch                                           TCEC draw rule          A80     8/3k4/1Kp3Q1/3p4/3P4/8/8/2q5 w - - 14 234               20:45:14 on 2019.02.09
31      LCZero v20.2-32930      0.04    Stockfish 190203        0.00    1/2-1/2         109     04:38:04        Caro-Kann, advance variation                    SyzygyTB                B12     bR6/P7/kn6/8/5K2/8/8/8 w - - 0 110                      02:40:54 on 2019.02.10
32      Stockfish 190203        0.00    LCZero v20.2-32930      0.03    1/2-1/2         71      04:14:59        Caro-Kann, advance variation                    SyzygyTB                B12     8/4k3/8/R7/P1P1K3/r7/8/8 b - - 0 71                     07:20:14 on 2019.02.10
33      LCZero v20.2-32930      0.01    Stockfish 190203        0.00    1/2-1/2         66      04:09:04        King's Indian, Saemisch, 5...O-O                TCEC draw rule          E81     5R2/2P5/2r5/8/1K6/1P6/P4kp1/8 b - - 10 66               11:36:28 on 2019.02.10
34      Stockfish 190203        0.00    LCZero v20.2-32930      -0.01   1/2-1/2         70      04:13:22        King's Indian, Saemisch, 5...O-O                TCEC draw rule          E81     8/4npk1/3p2p1/2pP2P1/p4P1r/Pp3R2/1P3R2/2K5 w - - 12 71  15:46:49 on 2019.02.10
35      LCZero v20.2-32930      0.02    Stockfish 190203        0.00    1/2-1/2         135     04:58:37        French, Paulsen variation                       SyzygyTB                C10     8/8/3k4/3P4/2p1K3/2n1N3/8/8 w - - 0 136                 20:01:26 on 2019.02.10
36      Stockfish 190203        0.00    LCZero v20.2-32930      -0.01   1/2-1/2         103     04:45:19        French, Paulsen variation                       SyzygyTB                C10     8/8/2k5/1R6/1pP5/8/5K2/6r1 b - - 0 103                  01:01:18 on 2019.02.11
37      LCZero v20.2-32930      0.01    Stockfish 190203        0.00    1/2-1/2         121     04:56:17        Trompovsky attack (Ruth, Opovcensky opening)    TCEC draw rule          A45     5R2/8/1pk5/3r4/8/K1P2Q2/8/1q6 b - - 72 121              05:47:52 on 2019.02.11
38      Stockfish 190203        0.00    LCZero v20.2-32930      -0.03   1/2-1/2         121     04:55:42        Trompovsky attack (Ruth, Opovcensky opening)    3-Fold repetition       A45     b7/8/PbN5/1P1B4/3p4/3K4/5k1p/8 b - - 97 121             10:45:25 on 2019.02.11


Since TCEC uses start positions, what they failed to do is to rotate the side with the same start positions, specially in a long match like this one :shock:

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Guenther
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Re: LCZero starts with an opening disadvantage..................

Post by Guenther » Tue Feb 12, 2019 2:30 am

Chessqueen wrote:
Mon Feb 11, 2019 9:08 pm
...

As a matter of fact I made a bet with my friend that you specifically would be the first to come up with a response.
Your friend Harvey again in the mirror?

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hgm
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Re: LCZero starts with an opening disadvantage..................

Post by hgm » Tue Feb 12, 2019 8:48 pm

Chessqueen wrote:
Mon Feb 11, 2019 9:08 pm
I knew that, I just wanted to see how people like you (know it all) would react. As a matter of fact I made a bet with my friend that you specifically would be the first to come up with a response. Thanks you for helping me win $20.00 :D :mrgreen: :D
People want to pay you for acting like a moron ?!? :shock: You must be rich...

Chessqueen
Posts: 395
Joined: Wed Sep 05, 2018 12:16 am
Full name: Nancy M Pichardo

Re: LCZero starts with an opening disadvantage..................

Post by Chessqueen » Tue Feb 12, 2019 10:48 pm

hgm wrote:
Tue Feb 12, 2019 8:48 pm
Chessqueen wrote:
Mon Feb 11, 2019 9:08 pm
I knew that, I just wanted to see how people like you (know it all) would react. As a matter of fact I made a bet with my friend that you specifically would be the first to come up with a response. Thanks you for helping me win $20.00 :D :mrgreen: :D
People want to pay you for acting like a moron ?!? :shock: You must be rich...
I knew it, HG Muller can NOT keep quiet, something is constantly eating him up, Well I am probably his punching bag to get his frustration of whatever else is wrong with him. I am NOT rich by any means, but I make approximately $7,000.00 monthly. I live moderately probably like yourself.

I do have a question to you since you are more informed than I. At the moment it seems that LCZero is playing at the same level of the latest Stockfish with over 20+ draws in TCEC. How many more thousands of games it would take Leela to gain at leat 30 to 50 rating points?
https://tcec.chessdom.com/

Chessqueen
Posts: 395
Joined: Wed Sep 05, 2018 12:16 am
Full name: Nancy M Pichardo

Re: LCZero starts with an opening disadvantage..................

Post by Chessqueen » Tue Feb 12, 2019 11:20 pm

Chessqueen wrote:
Tue Feb 12, 2019 10:48 pm
hgm wrote:
Tue Feb 12, 2019 8:48 pm
Chessqueen wrote:
Mon Feb 11, 2019 9:08 pm
I knew that, I just wanted to see how people like you (know it all) would react. As a matter of fact I made a bet with my friend that you specifically would be the first to come up with a response. Thanks you for helping me win $20.00 :D :mrgreen: :D
People want to pay you for acting like a moron ?!? :shock: You must be rich...
I knew it, HG Muller can NOT keep quiet, something is constantly eating him up, Well I am probably his punching bag to get his frustration of whatever else is wrong with him. I am NOT rich by any means, but I make approximately $7,000.00 monthly. I live moderately probably like yourself.

I do have a question to you since you are more informed than I. At the moment it seems that LCZero is playing at the same level of the latest Stockfish with over 20+ draws in TCEC. How many more thousands of games it would take Leela to gain at leat 30 to 50 rating points?
https://tcec.chessdom.com/
Since you only cut your hair once a year, by the end of the year mark you probably could use your hair as a broom to sweet your house, and your beard could be used as a beehive :mrgreen:
http://home.hccnet.nl/h.g.muller/index.html

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hgm
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Re: LCZero starts with an opening disadvantage..................

Post by hgm » Wed Feb 13, 2019 7:52 am

So you can read... Must be proud of such a remarkable achievement!

That you set up yourself as a punching bag is merely a consequene of my duty as moderator. Although stupidity or lying is not strictly forbidden by the charter, unsuspecting readers should be warned that you are a remorseless liar, who (by his own admission) posts things he knows to be false whenever it suits him. (In this case for alledged financial gain.) Fortunately we have experts like Guenther here to prevent you from misleading people. This is what makes TalkChess such a great place for the computer-chess afficionado, and I think we should all be grateful for that.

Of course it is a good question whether it is wise believe the reasons for lying given by a person that just has confessed to be liar...

RubiChess
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Re: LCZero starts with an opening disadvantage..................

Post by RubiChess » Wed Feb 13, 2019 4:41 pm

You as a moderator can't you kick him just out of this forum? Annoying to read this childish bullshit.
./Andreas

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