mmt Vs. Ovyron (G4 D5 BG2)

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Ovyron
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Re: mmt Vs. Ovyron (G4 D5 BG2)

Post by Ovyron » Sun Feb 16, 2020 11:52 am

Jouni wrote:
Sun Feb 16, 2020 9:26 am
BTW Ovyron it's your move now :) .
I know. Still solving Zenmastur's position from the other thread to mate (but I haven't moved in any of my corr games, not just this one.)

zullil
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Re: mmt Vs. Ovyron (G4 D5 BG2)

Post by zullil » Sun Feb 16, 2020 12:32 pm

Ovyron wrote:
Sun Feb 16, 2020 11:52 am
Jouni wrote:
Sun Feb 16, 2020 9:26 am
BTW Ovyron it's your move now :) .
I know. Still solving Zenmastur's position from the other thread to mate (but I haven't moved in any of my corr games, not just this one.)
Since you were only required to get within five moves, that should have taken maybe eight hours. You really need to upgrade your hardware. But, I know, you disagree.

jp
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Re: mmt Vs. Ovyron (G4 D5 BG2)

Post by jp » Sun Feb 16, 2020 12:44 pm

zullil wrote:
Sun Feb 16, 2020 12:32 pm
Since you were only required to get within five moves, that should have taken maybe eight hours. You really need to upgrade your hardware. But, I know, you disagree.
All that matter is that he gets it right, so that we have the next 1.g4 game lined up. :)

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Re: mmt Vs. Ovyron (G4 D5 BG2)

Post by SheikhYerbouti » Sun Feb 16, 2020 1:14 pm

jp wrote:
Sun Feb 16, 2020 12:44 pm
All that matter is that he gets it right, so that we have the next 1.g4 game lined up. :)
Or alternatively, train Leela on 1.g4 only! 20 million games+ whatever until it's no longer losing.

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Re: mmt Vs. Ovyron (G4 D5 BG2)

Post by jp » Sun Feb 16, 2020 1:21 pm

So are you still betting on the theoretical draw?

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Re: mmt Vs. Ovyron (G4 D5 BG2)

Post by SheikhYerbouti » Sun Feb 16, 2020 1:31 pm

I'm betting on Leela establishing a biblical-esque truth to openings (if the bible was true) :) . Take the most unbalanced openings, train her on each one. It's only latterly much focus has gone into tuning her parameters. So once that's done and RL has run its course...

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Re: mmt Vs. Ovyron (G4 D5 BG2)

Post by jp » Sun Feb 16, 2020 1:48 pm

That's a bad bet. Only TBs will give you that.

It's an especially bad bet if the opening truth depends on difficult endgames.

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Re: mmt Vs. Ovyron (G4 D5 BG2)

Post by zullil » Sun Feb 16, 2020 2:13 pm

jp wrote:
Sun Feb 16, 2020 1:48 pm
That's a bad bet. Only TBs will give you that.

It's an especially bad bet if the opening truth depends on difficult endgames.
It would be interesting to train Lc0 by giving it White against Stockfish after 1. g4. I'd be curious to see what deep learning uncovers.
Last edited by zullil on Sun Feb 16, 2020 2:23 pm, edited 1 time in total.

SheikhYerbouti
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Re: mmt Vs. Ovyron (G4 D5 BG2)

Post by SheikhYerbouti » Sun Feb 16, 2020 2:15 pm

Well if the randomization element is cleverly calibrated enough there's no saying how strong neural nets can become, especially when coupled with much larger nets.

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Ovyron
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Re: mmt Vs. Ovyron (G4 D5 BG2)

Post by Ovyron » Sun Feb 16, 2020 3:05 pm

zullil wrote:
Sun Feb 16, 2020 12:32 pm
Since you were only required to get within five moves, that should have taken maybe eight hours.
Maybe I got there in 2 hours. But how would I know? I couldn't live with myself if my line was within 6 moves only AND THEN I have to play 1.g4 myself :shock: - so I spend most of my time nowadays "making sure".

Because, what if that position is in reality a mate in 25?? Then I have to do this until at least getting a mate in 30, and I'm still far away from that.

I checked a position that I had solved to a mate in 13 with Stockfish, and after reaching depth 70 it was still just showing a mate in 23. Depth 70 and it's still 10 moves off. So I can't trust it, I have to check these lines myself, and the thing is, you never know when you're done, because there may be some move that mates faster, and in some of these variations, much, much faster (I think the worst I've seen is Stockfish jumping from Depth 50 "mate in 18" to "mate in 8" after I make the improvement; again it's just 10 moves, but I'm starting to doubt even Zenmastur has the fastest mating line. Some of the moves white can play are just insane and mate faster for no humanly discernible reason, like, white gives away a pawn and a knight for nothing but BAM mating 10 moves faster :shock: )

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