Zenmastur vs Ovyron No it's not another GROB!

[zullil]

My abilities have never been about being able to predict Stockfish's moves with *precision* (having a high percentage hit rate of what moves it's going to play), but with *accuracy* (for instance, if there's 4 ways to get to some position, I have no idea about what it would play, so I could fail 3 of those moves, yet predict accurately the position it wanted to reach - even in my first 1.g4 game I predicted a position deep into the future despite my opponent playing 2 unexpected move orders). This has always been about detecting "parrots" (I have much easier games if they just send back Stockfish moves as I can go very deep into the lines they'e going to play) and setting traps against them (something as simple as aiming for a position where Komodo plays better moves than Stockfish, so I use it to perform better than them without much effort.)

I'm copping out because I'm still hopeful about playing a game against "you" (or your machine) in the future, showcasing these abilities live in a game. And I promise that I'll be truthful about the moves that high Depth Stockfish played that I didn't expect, in the same way I did in my game against Harvey, if we ever do it.

OK. Good luck with the game. I too will be rooting for White. Let's see if Zenmastur can manage to confound you.

[Zenmastur]

I have 3.Bc4 as best here with a mainline that goes into the 40s moves... then again I always looked at these positions with the mindset that white would be lucky to escape with a draw, so, huh...

I'll also be rooting for white, if I lose it with what I have it'd become the most instructive game of my life!

As much as I would like to see your 3.Bc4 line that will have to wait for another day, unless you want to send it to me or post it. I did a multipv overnight analysis of it and I wasn't impressed with the lines I saw. In as much as it would take me several days to root out a reasonable line of play in it I'll stick with the more traditional line.

1. e4 e5 2. f4 exf43.Nf3

[d]rnbqkbnr/pppp1ppp/8/8/4Pp2/5N2/PPPP2PP/RNBQKB1R b KQkq - 1 3

[Zenmastur]

If someone sends you a game with a lot of analysis do you have an automated way to get BM etc for your FEN/EPD library? If so, would you mind sharing your procedures and programs you use?

Or do you only use your own analysis for that?

Regards,

Zenmastur

[Ovyron]

As much as I would like to see your 3.Bc4 line that will have to wait for another day, unless you want to send it to me or post it.

Depending on how this game goes I might just go and challenge you to a King's Gambit game with reversed colors where I play 3.Bc4 It was the most frustrating thing to see all high black evals fail and being unable to find a line to refute it, but that may be irrelevant if white intends to win.

If someone sends you a game with a lot of analysis do you have an automated way to get BM etc for your FEN/EPD library? If so, would you mind sharing your procedures and programs you use?

Already did. Chess Openings Wizard does everything I need, I'd just import the PGN file with the lines, export the leaf nodes as EPDs, analyze them to give them some score on the tree, and backsolve. I have increasingly specialized trees for this (so, one huge tree to use as a basis with backsolved scores that points to other trees fragmented into relevant ECO codes of those lines that lead to smaller trees that cover the mainlines of those ECOs separated by key moves like, one tree for variations where one side castles kingside, and another for castling queenside, and such.)

Basically after getting analysis from someone I'd just need to cross-check the newly created tree with my maintree and see who has a better scoring novelty (either I already had the variations covered and a move that refutes the analysis, or the analysis had a line I didn't have that improves the score, so I'd try to refute it, and if I can't this tree becomes my new mainline of this variation.) After all is said and done one may find surprises like Bc4 in the Italian having a score that favors black, but if I've learned something is that such discoveries are best kept secret and used in an actual game, so it's actually very exciting to have my King Gambit's lines tested on here!

[Zenmastur]

As much as I would like to see your 3.Bc4 line that will have to wait for another day, unless you want to send it to me or post it.

Depending on how this game goes I might just go and challenge you to a King's Gambit game with reversed colors where I play 3.Bc4 It was the most frustrating thing to see all high black evals fail and being unable to find a line to refute it, but that may be irrelevant if white intends to win.

I'm not sure I'll have time for that, but if I do, I'll let you know. I'm sure it would be fun! I still haven't finished my computer yet. I haven't even updated the BIOS or any drivers yet. Too busy doing other things, like playing chess.

I had a power outage the other day and lost a bunch of work. It pisses me off every time it happens and it happens several times a year so I'm ordering a UPS.

If someone sends you a game with a lot of analysis do you have an automated way to get BM etc for your FEN/EPD library? If so, would you mind sharing your procedures and programs you use?

Already did. Chess Openings Wizard does everything I need, I'd just import the PGN file with the lines, export the leaf nodes as EPDs, analyze them to give them some score on the tree, and backsolve. I have increasingly specialized trees for this (so, one huge tree to use as a basis with backsolved scores that points to other trees fragmented into relevant ECO codes of those lines that lead to smaller trees that cover the mainlines of those ECOs separated by key moves like, one tree for variations where one side castles kingside, and another for castling queenside, and such.)

Basically after getting analysis from someone I'd just need to cross-check the newly created tree with my maintree and see who has a better scoring novelty (either I already had the variations covered and a move that refutes the analysis, or the analysis had a line I didn't have that improves the score, so I'd try to refute it, and if I can't this tree becomes my new mainline of this variation.) After all is said and done one may find surprises like Bc4 in the Italian having a score that favors black, but if I've learned something is that such discoveries are best kept secret and used in an actual game, so it's actually very exciting to have my King Gambit's lines tested on here!

Yeah, maybe when I get some time I'll try the "try-it-before-you-buy-it" option. I just don't like buggy programs that you have to pay for and then don't get any support. $200 seems a bit much. In the mean time, I'm trying to find another way to do about the same thing.

Right now I have no pre-calculated lines. I'll be making it up as I go. So, we'll see how I do at reinventing the wheel on every move.

[Ovyron]

Some secondary lines didn't stand the test of time, with today's Stockfish finding surprising 0.00 moves that weren't available back in 2017. What is surprising is that the main structure still holds. Or does it? At least for 3...g5 and 3...Nf6 it didn't, so all my experience on the Muzio will be nill...

1. e4 e5 2. f4 exf4 3. Nf3 d6

[d]rnbqkbnr/ppp2ppp/3p4/8/4Pp2/5N2/PPPP2PP/RNBQKB1R w KQkq -

Again on "the Busted King's Gambit", this time Bobby Fischer's words

[Zenmastur]

Some secondary lines didn't stand the test of time, with today's Stockfish finding surprising 0.00 moves that weren't available back in 2017. What is surprising is that the main structure still holds. Or does it? At least for 3...g5 and 3...Nf6 it didn't, so all my experience on the Muzio will be nill...

1. e4 e5 2. f4 exf4 3. Nf3 d6

[d]rnbqkbnr/ppp2ppp/3p4/8/4Pp2/5N2/PPPP2PP/RNBQKB1R w KQkq -

Again on "the Busted King's Gambit", this time Bobby Fischer's words

Yeah, I saw something similar. A lot of lines go to 0.00 pretty quickly. A few even became positive. I fear this is going to be the most boring game ever played. I started a search on the position just before I went to bed early this morning. When I got up it had regurgitated a line of play to move 51. I guess that means you're not mating me anytime soon.

The score hasn't varied much either. I hope you have a fairly good sized rabbit up your sleeve.

I think engines and hardware have advanced to the point where very few lines in the KGA have any play left in them. You either solve the opening and end up in an endgame VERY quickly or you get mated.

I'll continue the search for something interesting. Lc0 seems to be no help. These types of positions need very precise calculations and the "fuzzy" guess-work of an NN engine is almost useless.

1.e4 e5 2.f4 exf4 3.Nf3 d6 4.d4

[d]rnbqkbnr/ppp2ppp/3p4/8/3PPp2/5N2/PPP3PP/RNBQKB1R b KQkq - 0 4

Regards,

Zenmastur

[Alayan]

g5 looks forced, but what's white move then to not make things worse and complicate the position to help black slip ?

[Ovyron]

The score hasn't varied much either. I hope you have a fairly good sized rabbit up your sleeve.

Huh? Have you forgotten why this game is taking place at all? This is what you were saying:

one game does not prove that your hardware is good enough.

I also believe that the opening position and the position after 1.g4 are relatively easy.
It may be too easy for black to win against 1.g4 and too easy for black to draw against other moves so hardware advantage is not going to help your opponent.

His strategy is to play for simply positions with as few lines of “reasonable" play as possible. This way his hardware is less of an obstacle. An example is the 1.g4 lines of play.

His opponents, if they know his weakness, should play for the most complicated lines of play possible. EVEN if it means playing less than best move. This rules out 1.g4 because you are already at such a disadvantage that it restricts your ability to make less than "perfect" moves as doing so results in an immediate loss.

In a “normal” game you would want to avoid trades, keeping the positions open, and tactically VERY sharp! This will maximize the number of lines he has to examine and therefore expose his hardware as a weakness. It's difficult to do that in 1.g4 lines. That is one of the reasons he picked that line of play. Another reason 1.g4 is so appealing to him, if he is playing black, is that the game is already decided. AB engines are very good at dealing with positions where one side has a clear advantage. This nullifies any hardware advantage a prospective opponent has against him. No amount of hardware can make up for the crippled position white has to defend.

It does not mean that it is so easy to get optimal results in different lines.

Precisely!

Regards,

Zenmastur

I'll claim that I don't think you can do that against me if I start with the white pieces, THAT'S why I got black in the game, so that you could demonstrate what you were saying.

The person that needs to show that a rabbit exists at all IS YOU

1. e4 e5 2. f4 exf4 3. Nf3 d6 4. d4 g5

[d]rnbqkbnr/ppp2p1p/3p4/6p1/3PPp2/5N2/PPP3PP/RNBQKB1R w KQkq -

[Zenmastur]

1. e4 e5 2. f4 exf4 3. Nf3 d6 4. d4 g5 5.h4

[d]rnbqkbnr/ppp2p1p/3p4/6p1/3PPp1P/5N2/PPP3P1/RNBQKB1R b KQkq - 0 5