Zenmastur vs Ovyron No it's not another GROB!

Discussion of computer chess matches and engine tournaments.

Moderators: bob, hgm, Harvey Williamson

Forum rules
This textbox is used to restore diagrams posted with the [d] tag before the upgrade.
Zenmastur
Posts: 782
Joined: Sat May 31, 2014 6:28 am

Re: Zenmastur vs Ovyron No it's not another GROB!

Post by Zenmastur » Mon Mar 23, 2020 10:59 am

19.Nh5
Only 2 defining forces have ever offered to die for you.....Jesus Christ and the American Soldier. One died for your soul, the other for your freedom.

jp
Posts: 1254
Joined: Mon Apr 23, 2018 5:54 am

Re: Zenmastur vs Ovyron No it's not another GROB!

Post by jp » Mon Mar 23, 2020 12:53 pm

Ovyron wrote:
Sun Mar 22, 2020 11:18 pm
so far this game has been a waste.
Yes, you could have been playing another 1.g4 game (as Black)! We are highly unlikely to learn anything about the KGA from this game. We might learn more about 1.g4 from another 1.g4 game.

Zenmastur
Posts: 782
Joined: Sat May 31, 2014 6:28 am

Re: Zenmastur vs Ovyron No it's not another GROB!

Post by Zenmastur » Mon Mar 23, 2020 7:06 pm

jp wrote:
Mon Mar 23, 2020 12:53 pm
Ovyron wrote:
Sun Mar 22, 2020 11:18 pm
so far this game has been a waste.
Yes, you could have been playing another 1.g4 game (as Black)! We are highly unlikely to learn anything about the KGA from this game. We might learn more about 1.g4 from another 1.g4 game.
Really?

What do you think you're going to learn that you don't already know?

I'll save you some time, not that it takes much to figure this out, but white gets crushed in all variations.

Second,

Ovyron had his chance. I agreed to defend 1.g4, but he gave up due to lack of hardware.

As for this game, he had more than one chance to go for a win. Instead he picked a "safe" and drawing line. That's not my fault. Even until relatively recently he had the chance to enter a superior endgame to the one he's going to get. Assuming he even considered the move he either couldn't see deep enough or he had a lapse in judgement. In either case, he's left with an endgame with no chances for a win. His ONLY chance is if I die before the game is over or I blunder. With best play it's a draw.

Regards,

Zenmastur
Only 2 defining forces have ever offered to die for you.....Jesus Christ and the American Soldier. One died for your soul, the other for your freedom.

zullil
Posts: 5976
Joined: Mon Jan 08, 2007 11:31 pm
Location: PA USA
Full name: Louis Zulli

Re: Zenmastur vs Ovyron No it's not another GROB!

Post by zullil » Mon Mar 23, 2020 7:22 pm

Zenmastur wrote:
Mon Mar 23, 2020 7:06 pm
Even until relatively recently he had the chance to enter a superior endgame to the one he's going to get. Assuming he even considered the move he either couldn't see deep enough or he had a lapse in judgement.
Regards,

Zenmastur
I assume you are referring to the "interesting" alternative to 16...Ng6.

jp
Posts: 1254
Joined: Mon Apr 23, 2018 5:54 am

Re: Zenmastur vs Ovyron No it's not another GROB!

Post by jp » Mon Mar 23, 2020 7:36 pm

Zenmastur wrote:
Mon Mar 23, 2020 7:06 pm
Really?
What do you think you're going to learn that you don't already know?
I'll save you some time, not that it takes much to figure this out, but white gets crushed in all variations.
We certainly don't know that.

True, we won't know after one more game either, but at least it's one more data point. (e.g. Hai was very confident it's a draw. It's worth trying to persuade him to play White against one of you. That could be done simultaneously with other games, of course.)

Zenmastur
Posts: 782
Joined: Sat May 31, 2014 6:28 am

Re: Zenmastur vs Ovyron No it's not another GROB!

Post by Zenmastur » Mon Mar 23, 2020 7:54 pm

jp wrote:
Mon Mar 23, 2020 7:36 pm
Zenmastur wrote:
Mon Mar 23, 2020 7:06 pm
Really?
What do you think you're going to learn that you don't already know?
I'll save you some time, not that it takes much to figure this out, but white gets crushed in all variations.
We certainly don't know that.
What do you mean by the word "know"? If you mean "absolute proof" we will never "know". If you mean "reasonable certain" then we already "know".
Only 2 defining forces have ever offered to die for you.....Jesus Christ and the American Soldier. One died for your soul, the other for your freedom.

Zenmastur
Posts: 782
Joined: Sat May 31, 2014 6:28 am

Re: Zenmastur vs Ovyron No it's not another GROB!

Post by Zenmastur » Mon Mar 23, 2020 7:56 pm

zullil wrote:
Mon Mar 23, 2020 7:22 pm
Zenmastur wrote:
Mon Mar 23, 2020 7:06 pm
Even until relatively recently he had the chance to enter a superior endgame to the one he's going to get. Assuming he even considered the move he either couldn't see deep enough or he had a lapse in judgement.
Regards,

Zenmastur
I assume you are referring to the "interesting" alternative to 16...Ng6.
Yes. Although, I don't think this is the only other "try" for a better endgame, it's the most recent.
Last edited by Zenmastur on Mon Mar 23, 2020 7:58 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Only 2 defining forces have ever offered to die for you.....Jesus Christ and the American Soldier. One died for your soul, the other for your freedom.

jp
Posts: 1254
Joined: Mon Apr 23, 2018 5:54 am

Re: Zenmastur vs Ovyron No it's not another GROB!

Post by jp » Mon Mar 23, 2020 7:57 pm

Zenmastur wrote:
Mon Mar 23, 2020 7:54 pm
What do you mean by the word "know"? If you mean "absolute proof" we will never "know". If you mean "reasonable certain" then we already "know".
Clearly, if we are somewhere on a continuum between knowing nothing and absolute proof (which we are), then we can always move in the knowing-more direction along that continuum. (Of course, that it's a continuum is an assumption.)

drewdrew
Posts: 18
Joined: Sun Feb 16, 2020 10:13 pm
Full name: Drew D. Rue

Re: Zenmastur vs Ovyron No it's not another GROB!

Post by drewdrew » Mon Mar 23, 2020 7:59 pm

zullil wrote:
Mon Mar 23, 2020 7:22 pm
Zenmastur wrote:
Mon Mar 23, 2020 7:06 pm
Even until relatively recently he had the chance to enter a superior endgame to the one he's going to get. Assuming he even considered the move he either couldn't see deep enough or he had a lapse in judgement.
Regards,

Zenmastur
I assume you are referring to the "interesting" alternative to 16...Ng6.
FWIW, this is the only point in the last many many moves where lc0 in some of its runs was proposing an alternative to SF's line. Though its overall score seemed to be essentially the same as 16... Ng6: about -0.31

zullil
Posts: 5976
Joined: Mon Jan 08, 2007 11:31 pm
Location: PA USA
Full name: Louis Zulli

Re: Zenmastur vs Ovyron No it's not another GROB!

Post by zullil » Mon Mar 23, 2020 8:11 pm

drewdrew wrote:
Mon Mar 23, 2020 7:59 pm
zullil wrote:
Mon Mar 23, 2020 7:22 pm
Zenmastur wrote:
Mon Mar 23, 2020 7:06 pm
Even until relatively recently he had the chance to enter a superior endgame to the one he's going to get. Assuming he even considered the move he either couldn't see deep enough or he had a lapse in judgement.
Regards,

Zenmastur
I assume you are referring to the "interesting" alternative to 16...Ng6.
FWIW, this is the only point in the last many many moves where lc0 in some of its runs was proposing an alternative to SF's line. Though its overall score seemed to be essentially the same as 16... Ng6: about -0.31
Stockfish-dev here did not have 16...Ng6 as its first choice. That said, its top three choices were all basically at 0.00.

Post Reply