Zenmastur vs Ovyron No it's not another GROB!

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Zenmastur
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Re: Zenmastur vs Ovyron No it's not another GROB!

Post by Zenmastur » Mon Mar 23, 2020 8:15 pm

drewdrew wrote:
Mon Mar 23, 2020 7:59 pm
zullil wrote:
Mon Mar 23, 2020 7:22 pm
Zenmastur wrote:
Mon Mar 23, 2020 7:06 pm
Even until relatively recently he had the chance to enter a superior endgame to the one he's going to get. Assuming he even considered the move he either couldn't see deep enough or he had a lapse in judgement.
Regards,

Zenmastur
I assume you are referring to the "interesting" alternative to 16...Ng6.
FWIW, this is the only point in the last many many moves where lc0 in some of its runs was proposing an alternative to SF's line. Though its overall score seemed to be essentially the same as 16... Ng6: about -0.31
Did you look at any of the endgames that resulted from the alternate and then compare them to what results after 16. ... Ng6? I did. They looked really bad. I don't know if they're losing but I certainly didn't want to have to defend them.
Only 2 defining forces have ever offered to die for you.....Jesus Christ and the American Soldier. One died for your soul, the other for your freedom.

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Ovyron
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Re: Zenmastur vs Ovyron No it's not another GROB!

Post by Ovyron » Mon Mar 23, 2020 8:29 pm

Zenmastur wrote:
Mon Mar 23, 2020 7:06 pm
Ovyron had his chance. I agreed to defend 1.g4, but he gave up due to lack of hardware.
I gave up because it was a really boring, useless task. And I told you if I didn't give up I'd have been done at about the end of June (I know, after seeing the lines I needed to find.)

All you've proven is that my hardware is slow, but we already knew that. You have a Formula 1 car and on this game still drove it at the speed of my tricycle.

You were not supposed to find best moves for black and then point out I didn't play them, you were supposed to find best moves for white and play them yourself, but failed miserably. Your faster hardware did nothing :roll:

1. e4 e5 2. f4 exf4 3. Nf3 d6 4. d4 g5 5. h4 g4 6. Ng1 Qf6 7. Nc3 Ne7 8. Nge2 Bh6 9. Qd2 Nbc6 10. Nb5 Kd8 11. d5 a6 12. Nbc3 Ne5 13. Nxf4 g3 14. Qe3 N7g6 15. Nce2 Nxf4 16. Nxf4 Ng6 17. Nh5 Bxe3 18. Nxf6 Bd4 19. Nh5 Bf2+


drewdrew
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Re: Zenmastur vs Ovyron No it's not another GROB!

Post by drewdrew » Mon Mar 23, 2020 8:38 pm

zullil wrote:
Mon Mar 23, 2020 8:11 pm
drewdrew wrote:
Mon Mar 23, 2020 7:59 pm
zullil wrote:
Mon Mar 23, 2020 7:22 pm
Zenmastur wrote:
Mon Mar 23, 2020 7:06 pm
Even until relatively recently he had the chance to enter a superior endgame to the one he's going to get. Assuming he even considered the move he either couldn't see deep enough or he had a lapse in judgement.
Regards,

Zenmastur
I assume you are referring to the "interesting" alternative to 16...Ng6.
FWIW, this is the only point in the last many many moves where lc0 in some of its runs was proposing an alternative to SF's line. Though its overall score seemed to be essentially the same as 16... Ng6: about -0.31
Stockfish-dev here did not have 16...Ng6 as its first choice. That said, its top three choices were all basically at 0.00.
Interesting. Mine - on MultiPV=1 - was stuck on Ng6.

Zenmastur
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Re: Zenmastur vs Ovyron No it's not another GROB!

Post by Zenmastur » Mon Mar 23, 2020 8:48 pm

Ovyron wrote:
Mon Mar 23, 2020 8:29 pm
Zenmastur wrote:
Mon Mar 23, 2020 7:06 pm
Ovyron had his chance. I agreed to defend 1.g4, but he gave up due to lack of hardware.
I gave up ...
That says it all!
Ovyron wrote:
Mon Mar 23, 2020 8:29 pm
All you've proven is that my hardware is slow,...
Ovyron wrote:
Mon Mar 23, 2020 8:29 pm
You were not supposed to find best moves for black and then point out I didn't play them, you were supposed to find best moves for white and play them yourself, but failed miserably. Your faster hardware did nothing :roll:
No! You're wrong. This is about your hardware not mine. I'm supposed to point out that you can't or won't find/play the best moves. And so far you haven't. I never said I was going to play the best moves. In fact, I mentioned that I probably wouldn't be playing the best moves. Do you not remember me saying that? As I recall, you actually quoted me say something to that effect. So, I'm doing what I said I was going to do before the game started and your doing what I expected you to do, finding sub-standard moves. No surprises, so far!

1. e4 e5 2. f4 exf4 3. Nf3 d6 4. d4 g5 5. h4 g4 6. Ng1 Qf6 7. Nc3 Ne7 8. Nge2 Bh6 9. Qd2 Nbc6 10. Nb5 Kd8 11. d5 a6 12. Nbc3 Ne5 13. Nxf4 g3 14. Qe3 N7g6 15. Nce2 Nxf4 16. Nxf4 Ng6 17. Nh5 Bxe3 18. Nxf6 Bd4 19. Nh5 Bf2+ 20.Kd1

Only 2 defining forces have ever offered to die for you.....Jesus Christ and the American Soldier. One died for your soul, the other for your freedom.

zullil
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Re: Zenmastur vs Ovyron No it's not another GROB!

Post by zullil » Mon Mar 23, 2020 9:09 pm

drewdrew wrote:
Mon Mar 23, 2020 8:38 pm
zullil wrote:
Mon Mar 23, 2020 8:11 pm
drewdrew wrote:
Mon Mar 23, 2020 7:59 pm
zullil wrote:
Mon Mar 23, 2020 7:22 pm
Zenmastur wrote:
Mon Mar 23, 2020 7:06 pm
Even until relatively recently he had the chance to enter a superior endgame to the one he's going to get. Assuming he even considered the move he either couldn't see deep enough or he had a lapse in judgement.
Regards,

Zenmastur
I assume you are referring to the "interesting" alternative to 16...Ng6.
FWIW, this is the only point in the last many many moves where lc0 in some of its runs was proposing an alternative to SF's line. Though its overall score seemed to be essentially the same as 16... Ng6: about -0.31
Stockfish-dev here did not have 16...Ng6 as its first choice. That said, its top three choices were all basically at 0.00.
Interesting. Mine - on MultiPV=1 - was stuck on Ng6.
Mine was also using MultiPV=1. It preferred a move other than 16...Ng6. At that point, I did a relatively short search with MultiPV=3, and noted that there was little difference in the evaluations of the top 3. I then entered 16...Ng6, since I was sure that Black would play that move.

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Ovyron
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Re: Zenmastur vs Ovyron No it's not another GROB!

Post by Ovyron » Mon Mar 23, 2020 9:12 pm

Zenmastur wrote:
Mon Mar 23, 2020 8:48 pm
no! You're wrong. This is about your hardware not mine. I'm supposed to point out that you can't or won't find/play the best moves. And so far you haven't. I never said I was going to play the best moves. In fact, I mentioned that I probably wouldn't be playing the best moves. Do you not remember me saying that? As I recall, you actually quoted me say something to that effect. So, I'm doing what I said I was going to do before the game started and your doing what I expected you to do, finding sub-standard moves. No surprises, so far!
And the only reason you'd do that would be if you can't beat me in a game. My analysis methods are good enough that I play at your level and that's why you can't beat me in a game (if your faster hardware helped you play better than me, you could have defeated me in a game.)

From this side I showed how to nullify your hardware advantage, so if our hardware was swapped the result would have been the same, and I never wanted more than that 8-)

Best moves or not best moves you could never have reached an advantageous position against me, so you went for this.

20...f5

zullil
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Re: Zenmastur vs Ovyron No it's not another GROB!

Post by zullil » Mon Mar 23, 2020 9:13 pm

Zenmastur wrote:
Mon Mar 23, 2020 8:15 pm
drewdrew wrote:
Mon Mar 23, 2020 7:59 pm
zullil wrote:
Mon Mar 23, 2020 7:22 pm
Zenmastur wrote:
Mon Mar 23, 2020 7:06 pm
Even until relatively recently he had the chance to enter a superior endgame to the one he's going to get. Assuming he even considered the move he either couldn't see deep enough or he had a lapse in judgement.
Regards,

Zenmastur
I assume you are referring to the "interesting" alternative to 16...Ng6.
FWIW, this is the only point in the last many many moves where lc0 in some of its runs was proposing an alternative to SF's line. Though its overall score seemed to be essentially the same as 16... Ng6: about -0.31
Did you look at any of the endgames that resulted from the alternate and then compare them to what results after 16. ... Ng6? I did. They looked really bad. I don't know if they're losing but I certainly didn't want to have to defend them.
I did not study any of the resulting endgames. By the way, are you using at least some of the 7-man endgame tables?

zullil
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Re: Zenmastur vs Ovyron No it's not another GROB!

Post by zullil » Mon Mar 23, 2020 9:23 pm

Ovyron wrote:
Mon Mar 23, 2020 9:12 pm

My analysis methods are good enough that I play at your level
So far, I've seen nothing that refutes this.

My understanding was that White intended to refute your statement by defeating you. Perhaps I misunderstood.

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Ovyron
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Re: Zenmastur vs Ovyron No it's not another GROB!

Post by Ovyron » Mon Mar 23, 2020 9:28 pm

zullil wrote:
Mon Mar 23, 2020 9:23 pm
Ovyron wrote:
Mon Mar 23, 2020 9:12 pm

My analysis methods are good enough that I play at your level
So far, I've seen nothing that refutes this.

My understanding was that White intended to refute your statement by defeating you. Perhaps I misunderstood.
Thank you zullil, I really appreciate reading this and I'm glad I managed to successfully demonstrate something for the audience.

zullil
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Full name: Louis Zulli

Re: Zenmastur vs Ovyron No it's not another GROB!

Post by zullil » Mon Mar 23, 2020 9:35 pm

Ovyron wrote:
Mon Mar 23, 2020 9:28 pm
zullil wrote:
Mon Mar 23, 2020 9:23 pm
Ovyron wrote:
Mon Mar 23, 2020 9:12 pm

My analysis methods are good enough that I play at your level
So far, I've seen nothing that refutes this.

My understanding was that White intended to refute your statement by defeating you. Perhaps I misunderstood.
Thank you zullil, I really appreciate reading this and I'm glad I managed to successfully demonstrate something for the audience.
Well, the game is ongoing. :wink: And maybe I really didn't understand what Zenmastur intended.

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