Repetition detection structure.

[bob]

BTW, since I know you are not going to "do the research" to discover the way FIDE events are really run, here is a quote from the fide rule book that might not leave you "laughing out loud" after you read it:

#

The visually handicapped player shall have the right to make use of an assistant who shall have any or all of the following duties:

1.

Make either player`s move on the chessboard of the opponent.
2.

Announce the moves of both players.
3.

Keep the game score of the visually handicapped player and start his opponent`s clock, (keeping rule 3.c in mind).
4.

Inform the visually handicapped player only at his request of the number of moves completed and the time used up by both players.
5.

Claim the game in cases where the time limit has been exceeded and inform the controller when the sighted player has touched one of his pieces.
6.

Carry out the necessary formalities in case the game is adjourned. If the visually handicapped player does not make use of an assistant, the sighted player may make use of one who shall carry out the duties mentioned under point 9a and b.

So, perhaps you are no longer laughing, and are now learning???

[bob]

The problem is that I only recognize one type of chess game, one that does follow the FIDE rules.

Really? So how exactly does Crafty, for example, follow the following FIDE rule?

Article 4: The act of moving the pieces

4.1 Each move must be made with one hand only.

In particular, how do you want to follow it in exactly the same way in automated engine-engine tournaments and in operator-assisted play?

Doesn't belong to the topic, but this rule is obviously flawed and discriminating. It excludes people that don't have hands, are quadriplegic or are injured and cannot use their hands from tournament chess. It should be changed too:

4.1 It is not allowed to make moves with more than one hand.

or better, left out completely.

There are exceptions. I already quoted one directly from the rule book (on the FIDE web site)...

[hgm]

So, perhaps you are no longer laughing, and are now learning???

Not really!

So you are claiming now that Crafty is a "visually handicapped player"?

It still doesn't say anything about _automated_ play of computers. Perhaps automated play is not allowed at all under FIDE rules? And knowing how much value you attach to following these rules strictly by the letter, Crafty will never engage in automated play, for sure. The Crafty I saw participating in CCT10 was a fraud not?

So if you want to teach us a lesson, stop quoting irrelevant distractions and show us the FIDE rules that tell us you can use an ICS in stead of a chess board, send moves over the internet, and how these moves should be encoded!

[bob]

So, perhaps you are no longer laughing, and are now learning???

Not really!

So you are claiming now that Crafty is a "visually handicapped player"?

Do you ever read anything anyone writes? I _clearly_ pointed out, _multiple_ times, that FIDE and USCF chose to use blind player rules when a computer is involved. Been that way since the early 1970's when my very old program was playing in USCF events back then, and it was adopted by FIDE when they decided to allow computer players (albiet at ridiculous cost) some years back...

So no, I don't claim crafty is "visually impaired". I simply stated that chess federations apply those rules to a computer player, for obvious reasons...

Do you ever play your program in a human event? If not, why are you chiming in on something you know absolutely nothing about? If you have, why are you chiming in when you already knew the answer.

So, in short, "why are you chiming in at all, since it is pointless???"

It still doesn't say anything about _automated_ play of computers. Perhaps automated play is not allowed at all under FIDE rules? And knowing how much value you attach to following these rules strictly by the letter, Crafty will never engage in automated play, for sure. The Crafty I saw participating in CCT10 was a fraud not?

You ought to ask others what they think about the class of someone that can only resort to waves of "lol"... Looks pretty bad IMHO...

So if you want to teach us a lesson, stop quoting irrelevant distractions and show us the FIDE rules that tell us you can use an ICS in stead of a chess board, send moves over the internet, and how these moves should be encoded!

Again, do you _every_ read anything before writing? Did you know that FIDE _used_ ICC for some events? Did you know FIDE sanctions some events played on ICC?

Indeed, you are very well informed...

[hgm]

A lot of talk. But all idle beating around the bush, and nothing substantial:

I still do not see any quote of FIDE rules that would allow you to play _without_ a Human assistant, _without_ using a chess board. Show us where the FIDE rules state how, and with how many hands you have to move pieces on an ICS, blind or not. The FIDE allowed play on ICC? So what of it? Why don't you quote the rules then that state this is allowed? I can only think of a limited number of reasons you don't do that, and bore us with babble in stead. Like:

1) The rules don't exist, but FIDE feels free to break their own rules in cases where they are obviously inapplicable.
2) The rules do exist, but you cannot quote them, because you are not aware of all FIDE rules.
3) This falls under a general disclaimer: "For cases in which these rules do not foresee, the Tournament Director / arbiter can decide whatever he feels is necessary"
4) ...

Now if you can think of explanations that would not immediately proof you have no point, you are cordially invited to add them to the list.
Better, of course, would be to stop beating around the bush, and just quote the _relevant_ rules. But spare us your evasive babble.

[bob]

A lot of talk. But all idle beating around the bush, and nothing substantial:

I still do not see any quote of FIDE rules that would allow you to play _without_ a Human assistant, _without_ using a chess board. Show us where the FIDE rules state how, and with how many hands you have to move pieces on an ICS, blind or not. The FIDE allowed play on ICC? So what of it? Why don't you quote the rules then that state this is allowed? I can only think of a limited number of reasons you don't do that, and bore us with babble in stead. Like:

1) The rules don't exist, but FIDE feels free to break their own rules in cases where they are obviously inapplicable.
2) The rules do exist, but you cannot quote them, because you are not aware of all FIDE rules.
3) This falls under a general disclaimer: "For cases in which these rules do not foresee, the Tournament Director / arbiter can decide whatever he feels is necessary"
4) ...

Now if you can think of explanations that would not immediately proof you have no point, you are cordially invited to add them to the list.
Better, of course, would be to stop beating around the bush, and just quote the _relevant_ rules. But spare us your evasive babble.

I really don't care what you see or don't see. FIDE has held events on ICC. Do you believe they had human assistants for each player? In real events where we attend in person, we have rules in place for computers, they play as a "blind" player with existing rules ready to go. On a chess server, you use the GUI of your choice, the server is the primary arbiter since it keeps up with the legality of everything and maintains the clock. A human arbiter is always on call to handle oddball disputes such as claims of cheating and the like.

But since FIDE has held events on ICC, it would seem pretty obvious that they have already formulated a plan for that occurrence does it not???

You asked about crafty playing in FIDE/USCF events. I quoted the _specific_ rules that it has to use when attending an event "live". I would think that any idiot could figure out how this works on a chess server, since the chess server is an existing entity already. But, perhaps not...

[hgm]

I really don't care what you see or don't see.

Yes, and it is obvious to everyone that this is the root cause of most of your problems...

FIDE has held events on ICC. Do you believe they had human assistants for each player?

I don't believe that for a minute. But you seem to, as your precious FIDE rules say that computers should be treated as visually impaired, and visually impaired need to play with a Human assistant... But since it is by now clear that you are just bullshitting us, of course we don't believe that.

In real events where we attend in person, we have rules in place for computers, they play as a "blind" player with existing rules ready to go. On a chess server, you use the GUI of your choice, the server is the primary arbiter since it keeps up with the legality of everything and maintains the clock. A human arbiter is always on call to handle oddball disputes such as claims of cheating and the like.

But since FIDE has held events on ICC, it would seem pretty obvious that they have already formulated a plan for that occurrence does it not???

Of course. And it is equally obvious to everyone (except you, apparently) that that plan involves deviating from that silly single set of rules that you like to quote so much, and supplementing them with other rules that are tailored to the occasion. Rules that you apparently do not know...

You asked about crafty playing in FIDE/USCF events. I quoted the _specific_ rules that it has to use when attending an event "live".

Yes, and we could not care less about those rules, as we are not discussing 'live' events. It is all irrelevant babble, to disguise the fact that you haven't the slightest idea what you are talking about (or in any case what others are talking about. ).

I would think that any idiot could figure out how this works on a chess server, since the chess server is an existing entity already. But, perhaps not...

Indeed, but the idiot-department seems less forthcoming in explaining why the way it obviously works is not a direct violation of the 'single set of FIDE rules' that should apply there to Human and automated computer Chess alike...

[bob]

I really don't care what you see or don't see.

Yes, and it is obvious to everyone that this is the root cause of most of your problems...

FIDE has held events on ICC. Do you believe they had human assistants for each player?

I don't believe that for a minute. But you seem to, as your precious FIDE rules say that computers should be treated as visually impaired, and visually impaired need to play with a Human assistant... But since it is by now clear that you are just bullshitting us, of course we don't believe that.

Ever thought of going to FIDE's web site and looking at their published "rules for computer players"???
Didn't think so. The only one doing any bullshitting here is you, because you refuse to do any research and just spout tons and tons of pure rubbish. Fide explicitly does have rules for computers on their web site, they are obviously fashioned to handle face-to-face type games. For games played on the internet, computers and humans are treated the same way as in a real game. The computer can relay moves directly. Or it can have a "second" to make the moves.

Why is this so hard to understand? Why do you refuse to do any research, and instead tell me how things really are, without having a clue of "how they really are?"

Just go look. Once again, your education will continue. You badly need it at times...

In real events where we attend in person, we have rules in place for computers, they play as a "blind" player with existing rules ready to go. On a chess server, you use the GUI of your choice, the server is the primary arbiter since it keeps up with the legality of everything and maintains the clock. A human arbiter is always on call to handle oddball disputes such as claims of cheating and the like.

But since FIDE has held events on ICC, it would seem pretty obvious that they have already formulated a plan for that occurrence does it not???

Of course. And it is equally obvious to everyone (except you, apparently) that that plan involves deviating from that silly single set of rules that you like to quote so much, and supplementing them with other rules that are tailored to the occasion. Rules that you apparently do not know...

]

I have actually been to the FIDE web site. I specifically told you already that they have the normal "FIDE Laws of Chess" and that they also have specific rules that apply only for computers. I'd bet I know more about their rules for computers than you do, since you obviously know nothing about them at all.

Just go look, before you make further idiotic comments...

"seek and ye shall find"

is a good plan here....

But you do have to "seek". It isn't going to roll up to you and bite you in the ass if you just sit there...

You asked about crafty playing in FIDE/USCF events. I quoted the _specific_ rules that it has to use when attending an event "live".

Yes, and we could not care less about those rules, as we are not discussing 'live' events. It is all irrelevant babble, to disguise the fact that you haven't the slightest idea what you are talking about (or in any case what others are talking about. ).

I would think that any idiot could figure out how this works on a chess server, since the chess server is an existing entity already. But, perhaps not...

Indeed, but the idiot-department seems less forthcoming in explaining why the way it obviously works is not a direct violation of the 'single set of FIDE rules' that should apply there to Human and automated computer Chess alike...

Did I not say there was a set of rules, and then some additional rules to cover specific circumstances that have evolved since the original Laws of Chess were written?

grow up, please...

[bob]

For clarity's sake, here is what I have been saying, repeatedly.

1. Any GUI should follow the FIDE rules of chess.

2. FIDE has clearly defined rules, with some exceptions in how they are implemented when it comes to specific issues with players. Blind or handicapped players for example. Or computer players.

3. None of the FIDE rules of chess are violated by the exceptions. You still offer/claim draws in the same way. Etc. But if you are blind, or can not speak, you can do it thru a 3rd party. Ditto for moving pieces and the like.

Why you can't grasp this stuff is beyond me...

[Uri Blass]

For clarity's sake, here is what I have been saying, repeatedly.

1. Any GUI should follow the FIDE rules of chess.

2. FIDE has clearly defined rules, with some exceptions in how they are implemented when it comes to specific issues with players. Blind or handicapped players for example. Or computer players.

3. None of the FIDE rules of chess are violated by the exceptions. You still offer/claim draws in the same way. Etc. But if you are blind, or can not speak, you can do it thru a 3rd party. Ditto for moving pieces and the like.

Why you can't grasp this stuff is beyond me...

My opinion.
1)Every gui should follow Fide rules in games agaisnt humans.
Some modifications that do not change much are needed for
comp-comp games.

The modifications are about situations that do not happen often(and should never happen assuming the program has no bugs) like wrong draw claims or illegal moves.

There are 2 reasons for that
1)saving computer time because continue the game in this case may cause loss on time in significant part of the cases.
2)Helping the programmers to find bugs in their program.

reason 1 is not very important because I believe programs do not make wrong draw claims in more than 99% of the games.

reason 2 is the important reason.
If a program makes draw claim than it is better for the programmer to know about it only based on the pgn(the programmer may get pgn without logfile).

If the program makes the wrong claim and continue the game
then the programmer cannot know based on the pgn that it made a draw claim.

I think that most programmers are going to agree that they prefer to lose the game so they know about the bug and not to avoid losing when they get no information about the bug.

Uri