That Botwinnik test position. (O no not again)

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Henk
Posts: 7220
Joined: Mon May 27, 2013 10:31 am

That Botwinnik test position. (O no not again)

Post by Henk »

Recently encountered the game of that famous Botwinnik chess position in Kotow chess book.

[pgn]
[Event "AVRO"]
[Site "The Netherlands"]
[Date "1938.11.22"]
[EventDate "1938.11.06"]
[Round "11"]
[Result "1-0"]
[White "Mikhail Botvinnik"]
[Black "Jose Raul Capablanca"]
[ECO "E40"]
[WhiteElo "?"]
[BlackElo "?"]
[PlyCount "81"]

1.d4 Nf6 2.c4 e6 3.Nc3 Bb4 4.e3 d5 5.a3 Bxc3+ 6.bxc3 c5 7.cxd5
exd5 8.Bd3 O-O 9.Ne2 b6 10.O-O Ba6 11.Bxa6 Nxa6 12.Bb2 Qd7
13.a4 Rfe8 14.Qd3 c4 15.Qc2 Nb8 16.Rae1 Nc6 17.Ng3 Na5 18.f3
Nb3 19.e4 Qxa4 20.e5 Nd7 21.Qf2 g6 22.f4 f5 23.exf6 Nxf6 24.f5
Rxe1 25.Rxe1 Re8 26.Re6 Rxe6 27.fxe6 Kg7 28.Qf4 Qe8 29.Qe5 Qe7
30.Ba3 Qxa3 31.Nh5+ gxh5 32.Qg5+ Kf8 33.Qxf6+ Kg8 34.e7 Qc1+
35.Kf2 Qc2+ 36.Kg3 Qd3+ 37.Kh4 Qe4+ 38.Kxh5 Qe2+ 39.Kh4 Qe4+
40.g4 Qe1+ 41.Kh5 1-0
[/pgn]

So lets try again:

[d] 8/p3q1kp/1p2Pnp1/3pQ3/2pP4/1nP3N1/1B4PP/6K1 w - - 5 30

Code: Select all

 13	+3.50 	51.6M  	4:07.07	g3f1  h7h5  f1e3  g7h6  e3d5  f6d5  e5d5  b6b5  d5e4  a7a5  d4d5  a5a4  e4e
 12	+2.92 	19.5M  	1:25.04	g3f1  b6b5  f1e3  g7g8  e3d5  f6d5  e5d5  b3d2  d5a8  e7f8  a8f8  g8f8 
 11	+3.36 	7.98M  	0:34.26	g3f1  a7a5  f1e3  g7g8  e3d5  f6d5  e5d5  b6b5  d5d7  e7f8  d4d5 
 10	+2.56 	3.69M  	0:14.62	g3f1  a7a5  f1e3  g7g8  e3d5  f6d5  e5d5  b6b5  d5d7  e7f6 
  9	+2.61 	1.97M  	0:08.31	g3f1  a7a5  f1e3  g7g8  e3d5  f6d5  e5d5  b6b5  g1h1 
  8	+2.57 	1.19M  	0:04.78	g3f1  a7a5  f1e3  g7h6  e3d5  f6d5 
  8	+2.48 	718241	0:03.15	g3e2  e7e8  e2f4  e8c6  e6e7  g7f7  e5e1  c6c8 
  7	+1.88 	245814	0:01.47	g3e2  g7f8  e2f4  e7d8  b2a3  f8e8  e6e7 
  6	+1.50 	106067	0:00.87	g3e2  g7f8  e2f4  e7d8  e5e1  a7a5 
  5	+1.64 	60102  	0:00.59	g3e2  g7f8  e2f4  e7d8  e5e1 
  5	+1.16 	35492  	0:00.40	e5e2  a7a5  e2e1  a5a4  g1h1 
  5     -0.78 	26358  	0:00.33	e5e1  f6e4  g3f1  a7a5  f1e3 
  4	+1.16 	4387    0:00.15	e5e1  a7a5  g1h1  a5a4 
  3	+1.53 	1666    0:00.13	e5e1  a7a5  g1h1 
  2	+1.43 	182     0:00.09	e5e1  e7d8 
  1	+1.66 	34      0:00.08	e5e1
Skipper says no.
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mhouppin
Posts: 115
Joined: Wed Feb 12, 2020 5:00 pm
Full name: Morgan Houppin

Re: That Botwinnik test position. (O no not again)

Post by mhouppin »

It seems that Stash now solves it relatively quickly:

Code: Select all

FEN: 8/p3q1kp/1p2Pnp1/3pQ3/2pP4/1nP3N1/1B4PP/6K1 w - - 5 30

Stash v30.0:
 1/1	00:00	 35	35k	+0,71	1.h3
 2/2	00:00	 80	80k	+0,74	1.h3 a5
 3/3	00:00	 197	197k	+0,52	1.Ne2 a5 2.Nf4
 4/5	00:00	 363	363k	+1,32	1.Ne2 Na5 2.Nf4 Nc6
 5/5	00:00	 798	798k	+1,06	1.Ne2 Kg8 2.Nf4 a5 3.Nxd5
 6/6	00:00	 1k	1 066k	+1,06	1.Ne2 Kg8 2.Nf4 a5 3.Nxd5 Nxd5
 7/7	00:00	 3k	3 153k	+1,06	1.Nf1 a5 2.Ne3 Kg8 3.Nxd5 Nxd5 4.Qxd5
 8/10	00:00	 5k	2 655k	+0,14	1.Nf1 Na5 2.Ne3 Nc6 3.Nxd5 Nxe5 4.Nxe7 Nd3
 9/9	00:00	 7k	3 318k	+0,21	1.Nf1 Na5 2.Ne3 Nc6 3.Nxd5 Nxe5 4.Nxe7 Nd3 5.Ba3
 10/14	00:00	 41k	2 175k	-0,27	1.Ne2 Na5 2.Nf4 Nc6 3.Qg5 a5 4.g3 Qd6 5.Kg2 a4
 11/15	00:00	 56k	2 239k	-0,50	1.Ne2 Na5 2.Nf4 Nc6 3.Qg5 a5 4.Bc1 a4 5.Nxd5 Qxe6 6.Qh6+ Kg8 7.Nxf6+ Qxf6 8.d5
 12/20	00:00	 129k	2 269k	-0,72	1.Ne2 Na5 2.Nf4 Nc6 3.Qg5 Qd6 4.h4 Ne4 5.Qg4 a5 6.h5 g5 7.Bc1 Kg8
 13/18	00:00	 156k	2 291k	-0,33	1.Ne2 Na5 2.Nf4 Nc6 3.Qg5 a5 4.Bc1 a4 5.g3 a3 6.Nxg6 hxg6 7.Qh6+ Kg8 8.Bxa3
 14/20	00:00	 185k	2 281k	-0,31	1.Ne2 Na5 2.Nf4 Nc6 3.Qg5 a5 4.Bc1 a4 5.h3 a3 6.Nxg6 hxg6 7.Qh6+ Kg8 8.Bxa3 Qxe6 9.Qxg6+ Kh8 10.Qh6+ Kg8
 15/25	00:00	 329k	2 384k	-0,63	1.Ne2 Na5 2.Nf4 Nc6 3.Qg5 a5 4.Bc1 a4 5.g3 a3 6.Nxd5 Qxe6 7.Qh6+ Kf7 8.Nxf6 a2 9.d5 Qxf6 10.Qxh7+ Kf8
 16/25	00:00	 475k	2 461k	 0,00	1.Ba3 Qxa3 2.Nh5+ gxh5 3.Qg5+ Kh8 4.Qxf6+ Kg8 5.Qf7+ Kh8 6.Qf6+
 17/12	00:00	 506k	2 466k	 0,00	1.Ba3 Qxa3 2.Nh5+ gxh5 3.Qg5+ Kh8 4.Qxf6+ Kg8 5.Qf7+ Kh8 6.Qf6+
 18/12	00:00	 564k	2 485k	 0,00	1.Ba3 Qxa3 2.Nh5+ gxh5 3.Qg5+ Kh8 4.Qxf6+ Kg8 5.Qf7+ Kh8 6.Qf6+
 19/12	00:00	 614k	2 494k	 0,00	1.Ba3 Qxa3 2.Nh5+ gxh5 3.Qg5+ Kh8 4.Qxf6+ Kg8 5.Qf7+ Kh8 6.Qf6+
 20/12	00:00	 744k	2 470k	 0,00	1.Ba3 Qxa3 2.Nh5+ gxh5 3.Qg5+ Kh8 4.Qxf6+ Kg8 5.Qf7+ Kh8 6.Qf6+
 21/12	00:00	 924k	2 425k	 0,00	1.Ba3 Qxa3 2.Nh5+ gxh5 3.Qg5+ Kh8 4.Qxf6+ Kg8 5.Qf7+ Kh8 6.Qf6+
 22/35	00:03	 8 841k	2 239k	+1,46	1.h4 h5 2.Ne2 Nd2 3.Nf4 Nde4 4.Nxd5 Qd6 5.Nc7 Qxe5 6.dxe5 Ng8 7.Kf1 Ne7 8.Ba3 Nf5 9.e7 Nxe7 10.Bxe7 Nxc3 11.e6 b5 12.Ne8+ Kh6 13.Bg5+ Kh7
 23/30+	00:04	 9 565k	2 244k	+1,61	1.h4
 23/31+	00:04	 10 074k	2 252k	+1,76	1.h4
 23/34+	00:05	 11 651k	2 280k	+2,16	1.h4
 23/38	00:06	 13 973k	2 309k	+2,19	1.h4 h5 2.Ne2 Na5 3.Nf4 Nc6 4.Qg5 Qe8 5.Ba3 a5 6.Bd6 a4 7.e7 b5 8.Nxd5 Nxd5 9.Qxd5 Nxe7 10.Qe6 Qf7 11.Qxe7 Qxe7 12.Bxe7 Kf7 13.Ba3 Ke6 14.Kf2 Kd5 15.Ke3
 24/42+	00:07	 18 415k	2 364k	+2,34	1.h4
 24/42+	00:08	 21 096k	2 397k	+2,49	1.h4
 24/42-	00:09	 22 007k	2 406k	+2,04	1.h4 h5
 24/42+	00:10	 26 022k	2 436k	+2,35	1.h4
 24/42	00:11	 27 095k	2 441k	+2,25	1.h4 h5 2.Ne2 Na5 3.Nf4 Nc6 4.Qg5 Qe8 5.g4 Nh7 6.Qxd5 hxg4 7.Bc1 Ne7 8.Qb7 Kg8 9.Ba3 Nf5 10.Qxa7 Nxh4 11.e7 Nf3+ 12.Kg2 Ne1+ 13.Kg3 Nc2 14.Nd5 Nxa3 15.Qxa3 Qc6 16.Qa7 Qd6+ 17.Kxg4 Qe6+ 18.Kg3 Qe1+ 19.Kg2 Qe2+ 20.Kg1
 25/45+	00:12	 30 904k	2 462k	+2,40	1.Ba3
 25/45+	00:12	 31 897k	2 471k	+2,55	1.Ba3
 25/60+	00:20	 53 982k	2 612k	+5,88	1.Ba3
 25/60	00:23	 62 882k	2 634k	+6,13	1.Ba3 Qe8 2.Qc7+ Kg8 3.Be7 Kg7 4.Bd8+ Kf8 5.Bxf6 Qxe6 6.Be5 Nc1 7.Qb8+ Ke7 8.Qxa7+ Ke8 9.Qxh7 Nd3 10.Qc7 b5 11.h3 Nxe5 12.dxe5 Kf8 13.Ne2 Qe7 14.Qxe7+ Kxe7 15.Nd4 Kd7 16.Kf2 Ke7 17.Ke3 b4 18.cxb4 c3 19.b5
 26/53	00:25	 66 545k	2 644k	+6,04	1.Ba3 Qe8 2.Qc7+ Kg8 3.Be7 Kg7 4.Bd8+ Kf8 5.Bxf6 Qxe6 6.Be5 Nc1 7.Qb8+ Ke7 8.Qxa7+ Ke8 9.Qxh7 Nd3 10.Qc7 b5 11.h3 Nxe5 12.dxe5 d4 13.Ne4 dxc3 14.Nxc3 Kf8 15.Nxb5 Qd5 16.Qd6+ Qxd6 17.exd6 Ke8 18.Kf2 Kd7 19.Ke3 c3
 27/46+	00:27	 71 704k	2 653k	+6,19	1.Ba3
 27/46	00:27	 73 374k	2 657k	+6,19	1.Ba3 Qe8 2.Qc7+ Kg8 3.Be7 Kg7 4.Bd8+ Kf8 5.Bxf6 Qxe6 6.Be5 Nc1 7.Qb8+ Ke7 8.Qxa7+ Ke8 9.Qxh7 Qf7 10.Qh8+ Kd7 11.Qa8 Qe6 12.Qb7+ Ke8 13.Qc7 Nd3 14.h3 Nxe5 15.dxe5 Kf8 16.Ne2 Qe7 17.Qxe7+ Kxe7 18.Nd4 g5 19.Kf2 Kf7 20.Ke3
 28/42	00:28	 76 268k	2 663k	+6,19	1.Ba3 Qe8 2.Qc7+ Kg8 3.Be7 Kg7 4.Bd8+ Kf8 5.Bxf6 Qxe6 6.Be5 Nc1 7.Qb8+ Ke7 8.Qxa7+ Ke8 9.Qxh7 Qf7 10.Qh8+ Kd7 11.Qa8 Qe6 12.Qb7+ Ke8 13.Qc7 Nd3 14.h3 Nxe5 15.dxe5 Kf8 16.Ne2 Qe7 17.Qxe7+ Kxe7 18.Nd4 g5 19.Kf2 Kf7 20.Ke3 Ke7 21.Ke2 Kf7
 29/51+	00:32	 87 253k	2 672k	+6,34	1.Ba3
 29/51	00:33	 89 697k	2 672k	+6,25	1.Ba3 Qe8 2.Qc7+ Kg8 3.Be7 Kg7 4.Bd8+ Kf8 5.Bxf6 Qxe6 6.Be5 Nc1 7.Qb8+ Ke7 8.Qxa7+ Ke8 9.Qxh7 Qf7 10.Qh8+ Kd7 11.Qa8 Qe6 12.Qb7+ Ke8 13.Qc7 Nd3 14.h3 b5 15.Ne2 Qf5 16.Qc6+ Kf8 17.Qd6+ Ke8 18.Kh2 b4 19.cxb4 Nxe5 20.dxe5 Qe4
 30/52+	00:39	 106 831k	2 680k	+6,40	1.Ba3
 30/52+	00:46	 126 579k	2 706k	+6,55	1.Ba3
 30/54	00:50	 137 644k	2 714k	+6,55	1.Ba3 Qe8 2.Qc7+ Kg8 3.Be7 Kg7 4.Bd8+ Kf8 5.Bxf6 Qxe6 6.Be5 Nc1 7.Qb8+ Kf7 8.Qxa7+ Qe7 9.Qa8 Qe6 10.Qb7+ Ke8 11.Qxh7 Qf7 12.Qh8+ Ke7 13.Qa8 Nd3 14.Qa7+ Kf8 15.Qb8+ Ke7 16.Qd6+ Ke8 17.Bf6 Qd7 18.Qxb6 Kf7 19.Bg5 Qe6 20.Qc7+ Kg8 21.Qd8+ Kg7 22.h4 Qe1+ 23.Kh2
 31/63+	01:04	 174 511k	2 720k	+6,70	1.Ba3
 31/63	01:07	 184 008k	2 721k	+6,58	1.Ba3 Qe8 2.Qc7+ Kg8 3.Be7 Kg7 4.Bd8+ Kf8 5.Bxf6 Qxe6 6.Be5 Nc1 7.Qb8+ Kf7 8.Qxa7+ Qe7 9.Qa8 Qe6 10.Qb7+ Ke8 11.Qxh7 Qf7 12.Qh8+ Ke7 13.Qa8 Nd3 14.Qb7+ Kf8 15.Qb8+ Qe8 16.Qd6+ Kg8 17.Ne2 Qf7 18.Qd8+ Qf8 19.Qxd5+ Qf7 20.Qa8+ Qf8 21.Qxf8+ Kxf8 22.Nf4 Nxe5 23.dxe5 Kf7 24.Kf2
 32/58	01:12	 196 567k	2 727k	+6,70	1.Ba3 Qe8 2.Qc7+ Kg8 3.Be7 Kg7 4.Bd8+ Kf8 5.Bxf6 Qxe6 6.Be5 Nc1 7.Qb8+ Kf7 8.Qxa7+ Qe7 9.Qa8 Qe6 10.Qb7+ Ke8 11.Qxh7 Qf7 12.Qh8+ Ke7 13.Qa8 Nd3 14.Qb7+ Kf8 15.Qb8+ Qe8 16.Qd6+ Kg8 17.Ne2 Qf7 18.Qd8+ Qf8 19.Qxd5+ Qf7 20.Qa8+ Qf8 21.Qxf8+ Kxf8 22.Nf4 Nxf4 23.Bxf4 Kf7 24.d5 Kf6
 33/56+	01:31	 250 757k	2 734k	+6,85	1.Ba3
 33/56	01:33	 255 789k	2 738k	+6,85	1.Ba3 Qe8 2.Qc7+ Kg8 3.Be7 Kg7 4.Bd8+ Kf8 5.Bxf6 Qxe6 6.Be5 Nc1 7.Qb8+ Kf7 8.Qxa7+ Qe7 9.Qa8 Qe6 10.Qb7+ Ke8 11.Qxh7 b5 12.Qb7 b4 13.Qxb4 Nd3 14.Qb8+ Kf7 15.Qb7+ Kf8 16.Qg7+ Ke8 17.Qc7 Kf8 18.Ne2 Nxe5 19.dxe5 Qg4 20.Qd6+ Kg7 21.Qf6+ Kh7 22.Kf2 Qe4 23.e6
 34/56+	02:01	 334 272k	2 741k	+7,00	1.Ba3
 34/58+	02:35	 430 470k	2 775k	+7,15	1.Ba3
 34/58	03:02	 510 918k	2 803k	+7,16	1.Ba3 Qe8 2.Qc7+ Kg8 3.Be7 Kg7 4.Bd8+ Kf8 5.Bxf6 Qxe6 6.Be5 Nc1 7.Qb8+ Kf7 8.Qxa7+ Qe7 9.Qa8 Qe6 10.Qb7+ Ke8 11.Qxh7 Qf7 12.Qh8+ Kd7 13.Qa8 Qe6 14.Qb7+ Kd8 15.Qc7+ Ke8 16.h3 b5 17.Kh2 Nd3 18.Ne2 Nxe5 19.dxe5 Qf5 20.Qd6 Qe4 21.Qe6+ Kf8 22.Qf6+ Kg8 23.Nf4 Qf5 24.Qd8+ Kg7 25.Qe7+ Kh6 26.Nxd5
 35/40+	03:37	 614 479k	2 820k	+7,31	1.Ba3
 35/60+	04:26	 760 455k	2 852k	+7,46	1.Ba3
 35/61	05:24	 930 281k	2 865k	+7,53	1.Ba3 Qe8 2.Qc7+ Kg8 3.Be7 Kg7 4.Bd8+ Kf8 5.Bxf6 Qxe6 6.Be5 Nc1 7.Qb8+ Kf7 8.Qxa7+ Qe7 9.Qa8 Qe6 10.Qb7+ Ke8 11.Qxh7 Qf7 12.Qh8+ Kd7 13.Qa8 Qe6 14.Qb7+ Ke8 15.Qc7 Nd3 16.h3 b5 17.Ne2 Qf5 18.Qc6+ Kf8 19.Qd6+ Ke8 20.Qxd5 Nxe5 21.Qxe5+ Kd8 22.Qxf5 gxf5 23.Kf2 Ke7 24.Nf4 Kd6 25.Ke3 Kc6 26.h4
 36/62	06:02	 1 035 486k	2 856k	+7,53	1.Ba3 Qe8 2.Qc7+ Kg8 3.Be7 Kg7 4.Bd8+ Kf8 5.Bxf6 Qxe6 6.Be5 Nc1 7.Qb8+ Kf7 8.Qxa7+ Qe7 9.Qa8 Qe6 10.Qb7+ Ke8 11.Qxh7 Qf7 12.Qh8+ Kd7 13.Qa8 Qe6 14.Qb7+ Ke8 15.Qc7 b5 16.Qb7 Nd3 17.Qxb5+ Ke7 18.Qb8 Kf7 19.Qb7+ Ke8 20.Qc7 Kf8 21.Ne2 Nxe5 22.dxe5 Qf5 23.Qd6+ Kg7 24.Nd4 Qb1+ 25.Kf2 Qb2+ 26.Ne2 Qc2 27.Qxd5 g5 28.Ke3
 37/63+	07:21	 1 256 000k	2 843k	+7,68	1.Ba3
 37/63	08:36	 1 482 007k	2 866k	+7,73	1.Ba3 Qe8 2.Qc7+ Kg8 3.Be7 Kg7 4.Bd8+ Kf8 5.Bxf6 Qxe6 6.Be5 Nc1 7.Qb8+ Kf7 8.Qxa7+ Qe7 9.Qa8 Qe6 10.Qb7+ Ke8 11.Qxh7 Qf7 12.Qh8+ Ke7 13.Qb8 Qe6 14.Qb7+ Kf8 15.Qg7+ Ke8 16.Qc7 Kf8 17.h3 Nd3 18.Ne2 Nxe5 19.dxe5 Qe7 20.Qxe7+ Kxe7 21.Nd4 Kf7 22.Kf2 Kg7 23.Kf3 g5 24.Kg4 Kg6 25.Nc6 b5 26.Nd4 b4 27.cxb4 c3 28.b5
 38/61-	10:18	 1 778 438k	2 874k	+7,58	1.Ba3 Qe8
 38/61-	10:22	 1 788 403k	2 873k	+7,43	1.Ba3 Qe8
 38/61+	10:34	 1 820 503k	2 871k	+7,58	1.Ba3
 38/61	11:22	 1 955 739k	2 866k	+7,71	1.Ba3 Qe8 2.Qc7+ Kg8 3.Be7 Kg7 4.Bd8+ Kf8 5.Bxf6 Qxe6 6.Be5 Na5 7.Ne2 g5 8.Qxh7 Nc6 9.Qg7+ Ke8 10.Qxg5 Ne7 11.Nf4 Qf5 12.Qxf5 Nxf5 13.Nxd5 Kd7 14.g4 Nh4 15.Kf2 Ng6 16.Ke3 Kc6 17.Ke4 a5 18.Bf6 a4 19.h4 a3 20.h5 Nf8 21.h6 Kb5 22.Nb4 Ka4 23.Be7 Ng6 24.h7 Kb3 25.Nd5
 39/64+	12:59	 2 227 277k	2 857k	+7,86	1.Ba3
 39/66+	16:53	 2 916 022k	2 877k	+8,01	1.Ba3
 39/69	21:45	 3 781 060k	2 896k	+8,15	1.Ba3 Qe8 2.Qc7+ Kg8 3.Be7 Kg7 4.Bd8+ Kf8 5.Bxf6 Qxe6 6.Be5 Na5 7.Ne2 g5 8.Qxh7 Nc6 9.Qg7+ Ke8 10.Qxg5 Qf7 11.Nf4 a5 12.Bf6 a4 13.Qf5 Ne7 14.Qe5 Kd7 15.Bxe7 Qxe7 16.Qxd5+ Qd6 17.Qf7+ Kc8 18.Qxc4+ Kb7 19.Ne6 a3 20.h3 Kb8 21.d5 Qe5 22.Kf2 Qf6+ 23.Ke3 Qe5+ 24.Kf3 Qf5+ 25.Kg3 Qe5+ 26.Kg4 Qh2 27.Kf3 Qe5 28.Qc6 Qf5+ 29.Ke3 Qe5+ 30.Kd2 Ka7 31.Nd4 Qe4
The issue might be that h4 is another strong move here, and engines might focus on it, missing Ba3...
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User avatar
mvanthoor
Posts: 1784
Joined: Wed Jul 03, 2019 4:42 pm
Location: Netherlands
Full name: Marcel Vanthoor

Re: That Botwinnik test position. (O no not again)

Post by mvanthoor »

You'll have to see quite far ahead with the engine, to be able to solve this position. A human can do it mostly on intuition, but a chess engine has to look at all the possible moves of the two queens, which is a huge amount of stuff to search. Thus, for simple engines, that limits depth, and therefore the discovery of Ba3.
Author of Rustic, an engine written in Rust.
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