Participants WCCC 2007

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Thomas Mayer
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Re: Participants WCCC 2007

Post by Thomas Mayer » Mon May 28, 2007 9:44 pm

Hi Richard,
pijl wrote:
Gerd Isenberg wrote:
Guetti wrote: Yes, come on guys, strip toghether some parts of glaurung, scorpio and fruit and off you go to the WCCC. :lol:
Since all co-authors are mentioned and should have given their permission - and no other of the mentioned programs participate - it is ok for me but I am not entirely shure about the more ambitious participants like Vincent.
In fact Vincent does not really care. But I, a less ambitious participant, am worried. All participating teammembers should at least know and accept that they are participating. Are they? If they are, I still do not like it, but will accept it. If not, I will have strong objections against it.
Richard.
well, when they accept it it is definitely time to quit the ICGA. I saw those championships always as some sports to measure the strength of one's own creation. Well, if you can just take some strong open source here and there, combine that and change some bytes this ENDS the competition, everybody can participate then... oh, I forgot: who will participate when e.g. two participants mention fruit / toga in their programmers list ??? First wins or what ?

It was already unbelieveable that this was allowed in Paderborn. As we know now e.g. Bob wasn't informed at all. And I have my doubts about Fabien or Mr. Gaksch... And, of course, the source isn't opened of GridChess which is definitely against the GPL rules in Fruit / Toga. By the way: When it is opened I may take it then for next WCCC ??? Wonderful !
Greets, Thomas

Uri Blass
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Re: Participants WCCC 2007

Post by Uri Blass » Mon May 28, 2007 10:03 pm

Thomas Mayer wrote:Hi Richard,
pijl wrote:
Gerd Isenberg wrote:
Guetti wrote: Yes, come on guys, strip toghether some parts of glaurung, scorpio and fruit and off you go to the WCCC. :lol:
Since all co-authors are mentioned and should have given their permission - and no other of the mentioned programs participate - it is ok for me but I am not entirely shure about the more ambitious participants like Vincent.
In fact Vincent does not really care. But I, a less ambitious participant, am worried. All participating teammembers should at least know and accept that they are participating. Are they? If they are, I still do not like it, but will accept it. If not, I will have strong objections against it.
Richard.
well, when they accept it it is definitely time to quit the ICGA. I saw those championships always as some sports to measure the strength of one's own creation. Well, if you can just take some strong open source here and there, combine that and change some bytes this ENDS the competition, everybody can participate then... oh, I forgot: who will participate when e.g. two participants mention fruit / toga in their programmers list ??? First wins or what ?

It was already unbelieveable that this was allowed in Paderborn. As we know now e.g. Bob wasn't informed at all. And I have my doubts about Fabien or Mr. Gaksch... And, of course, the source isn't opened of GridChess which is definitely against the GPL rules in Fruit / Toga. By the way: When it is opened I may take it then for next WCCC ??? Wonderful !
Greets, Thomas
The main problem is if people are not honest about what they do but in this case it is not a problem.

It seems that it is not correct that Bob was not informed based on Bob's post in page 3 of this discussion.

It seems that Bob did not give direct permission and only said that he has no objection if the ICGA permit it inspite of disagreeing with the idea.

This is from Bob's post:

"(b) I have strong reservations about allowing any "entity" to compete if it is based primarily on one or more chess programs, even if the authors agree. If one of the agreeing authors also participates then I would be 100% against the idea since two entries for the same program should not be allowed (but there is precedent as ICCA allowed "Gunda" (a crafty clone) to enter the WCCC in either 1996 or 1997, so there is a bit of precedent albiet a bad one.

(c) I told them that if the ICGA chose to allow such entries, then I would have no objection, but that I personally strongly disagreed with the idea in general..."

Gerd Isenberg
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Re: Participants WCCC 2007

Post by Gerd Isenberg » Mon May 28, 2007 10:21 pm

Thomas Mayer wrote: well, when they accept it it is definitely time to quit the ICGA. I saw those championships always as some sports to measure the strength of one's own creation. Well, if you can just take some strong open source here and there, combine that and change some bytes this ENDS the competition, everybody can participate then... oh, I forgot: who will participate when e.g. two participants mention fruit / toga in their programmers list ??? First wins or what ?

It was already unbelieveable that this was allowed in Paderborn. As we know now e.g. Bob wasn't informed at all. And I have my doubts about Fabien or Mr. Gaksch... And, of course, the source isn't opened of GridChess which is definitely against the GPL rules in Fruit / Toga. By the way: When it is opened I may take it then for next WCCC ??? Wonderful !
Greets, Thomas
Kai Himstedt is quite a nice academical guy - his focus is on his own optimistic pondering approach - this is the intelligent player. No need to waste time and reinvent the wheel to make his own "dumb" engines ;-)

I wonder why Ulf does not provide his own engine PConners for that purpose, rather than making Fruit/Toga waiting for young brothers?
When do they need to publish the new modified source, immediatly after the WCCC?

Bob already mentioned that he was asked and gave a kind of reluctant permission, if I interprete him correctly - see this thread on page 3. I still guess same was true for the other "team-members" as well and that the entry is formal ok.

Gerd

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Thomas Mayer
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Re: Participants WCCC 2007

Post by Thomas Mayer » Mon May 28, 2007 10:31 pm

Hi Gerd,
Gerd Isenberg wrote:
Thomas Mayer wrote: well, when they accept it it is definitely time to quit the ICGA. I saw those championships always as some sports to measure the strength of one's own creation. Well, if you can just take some strong open source here and there, combine that and change some bytes this ENDS the competition, everybody can participate then... oh, I forgot: who will participate when e.g. two participants mention fruit / toga in their programmers list ??? First wins or what ?

It was already unbelieveable that this was allowed in Paderborn. As we know now e.g. Bob wasn't informed at all. And I have my doubts about Fabien or Mr. Gaksch... And, of course, the source isn't opened of GridChess which is definitely against the GPL rules in Fruit / Toga. By the way: When it is opened I may take it then for next WCCC ??? Wonderful !
Greets, Thomas
Kai Himstedt is quite a nice academical guy - his focus is on his own optimistic pondering approach - this is the intelligent player. No need to waste time and reinvent the wheel to make his own "dumb" engines ;-)

I wonder why Ulf does not provide his own engine PConners for that purpose, rather than making Fruit/Toga waiting for young brothers?
When do they need to publish the new modified source, immediatly after the WCCC?

Bob already mentioned that he was asked and gave a kind of reluctant permission, if I interprete him correctly - see this thread on page 3. I still guess same was true for the other "team-members" as well and that the entry is formal ok.

Gerd
Well, Kai might be a nice guy and of course for academical research there is nothing wrong with taking an open source engine. But to prove that his approach is working he can do that in the lab - he anyway needs thousands of games to show that it is working. So why destroying the sports, the competition ?

As far as I understood Bob wasn't informed about Paderborn which is usually held according to the ICGA rules. And I have BIG doubts that Fabien gave his permission or Thomas Gaksch. Also: Where is the open source GridChess ? Doesn't GPL count for them ?

And: You haven't answered my question about what should happen if someone wants to play also with a Fruit derivate or a combination of other sources ? So: either skip the clone rule and allow everyone who wants to participate with whatever hack of anything or stay strict. No patchwork engines in competitions.

Greets, Thomas

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mclane
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Re: Participants WCCC 2007

Post by mclane » Mon May 28, 2007 10:32 pm

some people need longer to see the moon full when it is full moon.

Gerd Isenberg
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Re: Participants WCCC 2007

Post by Gerd Isenberg » Mon May 28, 2007 10:57 pm

Thomas Mayer wrote:Hi Gerd,

Well, Kai might be a nice guy and of course for academical research there is nothing wrong with taking an open source engine. But to prove that his approach is working he can do that in the lab - he anyway needs thousands of games to show that it is working. So why destroying the sports, the competition ?

As far as I understood Bob wasn't informed about Paderborn which is usually held according to the ICGA rules. And I have BIG doubts that Fabien gave his permission or Thomas Gaksch. Also: Where is the open source GridChess ? Doesn't GPL count for them ?

And: You haven't answered my question about what should happen if someone wants to play also with a Fruit derivate or a combination of other sources ? So: either skip the clone rule and allow everyone who wants to participate with whatever hack of anything or stay strict. No patchwork engines in competitions.

Greets, Thomas
Hi Thomas,

I almost agree with you. But as long as no other team member is involved in another participating program - and all team members gave their permission, it is formal correct according to the rules. GPL is another issue of course and it is a topic in the players meeting for sure. It might be possible that they are explicitly invented by the IGCA due to the low number of participants. As Bob already mentioned, there was the precedence of Gunda I in Jakarta 96 to fulfill the desires of the local hosts and sponsors.

Cheers,
Gerd

Tord Romstad
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Re: Participants WCCC 2007

Post by Tord Romstad » Tue May 29, 2007 7:31 am

Thomas Mayer wrote:And, of course, the source isn't opened of GridChess which is definitely against the GPL rules in Fruit / Toga.
Hello Thomas,

You make some good points, but your claim above is incorrect: As long as you keep your modified version of a GPL program private, the GPL does not force you to make the source code public. The GPL only says that if you send the modfied program to somebody else, you also have to give them the full source code, and the right to distribute the program and the source code to their friends, and/or making it available as a free download.

There is nothing in the GPL which stops you from entering a computer chess tournament with a private, modified version of a GPLed chess program. On the other hand, the rules of most tournaments don't allow it, but that's a different question entirely.
By the way: When it is opened I may take it then for next WCCC???
I don't know the rules of the WCCC well enough to be sure, but in my opinion, it is no big deal. If you don't like the WCCC rules, just don't participate. There are plenty of other tournaments to choose from, especially here in Europe. It's probably a good thing that different tournaments have different rules about what kind of programs they allow, in order to keep everybody happy. :)

Tord

chessfurby
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Re: Participants WCCC 2007

Post by chessfurby » Tue May 29, 2007 8:06 am

Seconded.

*satiric mode on*
Btw ... i will try to apply with a Rybka- Zapchess Triplebrain system now. Using Shredders triple brain module and both Rybka and Zap as engines. Oh and no i will also not ask any of the authors, because that doesn't seem to be neccesary anymore.

If i should win with the above system then i will personally buy a pepsi for Mr Rajlich and Mr. Cozzie as "thank you for your work". And if i have become world champion with the above system i will of course sell the "engine" which i hereby name "gagachess".
*mode off*

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Thomas Mayer
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Re: Participants WCCC 2007

Post by Thomas Mayer » Tue May 29, 2007 9:35 am

Hi Tord,
Tord Romstad wrote:
Thomas Mayer wrote:And, of course, the source isn't opened of GridChess which is definitely against the GPL rules in Fruit / Toga.
You make some good points, but your claim above is incorrect: As long as you keep your modified version of a GPL program private, the GPL does not force you to make the source code public. The GPL only says that if you send the modfied program to somebody else, you also have to give them the full source code, and the right to distribute the program and the source code to their friends, and/or making it available as a free download.

There is nothing in the GPL which stops you from entering a computer chess tournament with a private, modified version of a GPLed chess program. On the other hand, the rules of most tournaments don't allow it, but that's a different question entirely.
I am not that sure about it, Tord. It is a good rule in the GPL that you can do IN PRIVAT whatever you want with the original source - simply because nobody can control that. BUT when you enter a PUBLIC tournament it isn't PRIVAT anymore as far as I understand this. But of course this would be something for a lawyer to decide this and computer chess is really not important enough to annoy the courts with it... ;)

But of course there is more, I may quote some lines of the Crafty source:

* Crafty, copyright 1996-2001 by Robert M. Hyatt, Ph.D., Associate Professor *
* of Computer and Information Sciences, University of Alabama at Birmingham. *
* *
* All rights reserved. No part of this program may be reproduced in any *
* form or by any means, for other than your personal use, without the *
* express written permission of the author. This program may not be used in *
* whole, nor in part, to enter any computer chess competition without *
* written permission from the author. Such permission will include the *
* requirement that the program be entered under the name "Crafty" so that *
* the program's ancestry will be known. *
* *
* Copies of the source must contain the original copyright notice intact. *
* *
* Any changes made to this software must also be made public to comply with *
* the original intent of this software distribution project. These *
* restrictions apply whether the distribution is being done for free or as *
* part or all of a commercial product. The author retains sole ownership *
* and copyright on this program except for 'personal use' explained below. *

IMO this is pretty clear...
Tord Romstad wrote:
By the way: When it is opened I may take it then for next WCCC???
I don't know the rules of the WCCC well enough to be sure, but in my opinion, it is no big deal. If you don't like the WCCC rules, just don't participate. There are plenty of other tournaments to choose from, especially here in Europe. It's probably a good thing that different tournaments have different rules about what kind of programs they allow, in order to keep everybody happy. :)
most tournaments are held according to the ICGA. Well let's take a look into the ICGA rules:

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
2. Each program must be the original work of the entering developers. Programming teams whose code is derived from or including game-playing code written by others must name all other authors, or the source of such code, in their submission details. Programs which are discovered to be close derivatives of others (e.g., by playing nearly all moves the same), may be declared invalid by the Tournament Director after seeking expert advice. For this purpose a listing of all game-related code running on the system must be available on demand to the Tournament Director.
<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<

So formal there might be a way that Gridchess plays there. But I wonder what is the spirit of that rule ? I doubt that they had something like GridChess in mind here... Again, if they allow this I wonder why they disqualified this italien engine last year. To me it's pretty clear that just because they didn't get enough entrants (and they might have sold again an eleven rounds tournament) they try to get more participants even with accepting that the spirit of the tournament is killed. There would be definitely an easier way: just offer something to the amateurs like free hotel, free flight or whatever and you mustn't care about number of participants.

Greets, Thomas

Uri Blass
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Re: Participants WCCC 2007

Post by Uri Blass » Tue May 29, 2007 11:47 am

Hi Thomas,

The reason that they disqualified Gridchess in 2006(that was named lion) is the simple fact that
Crafty participated and you cannot have Bob hyatt in 2 teams.

The situation in 2007 is different

There is also a simple answer to your question

" who will participate when e.g. two participants mention fruit / toga in their programmers list ??? First wins or what ?"

The authors of fruit/toga will have to choose one and only one participant
and if they do not choose one to allow him to participate then they cannot participate.

Uri

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