Rolf wrote:bob wrote: You continue to claim that this investigation was unfair because it only targeted one program/author, not all commercial programs and authors. I pointed out that criminals are caught and prosecuted every day, with no requirement that before one can be prosecuted, all must be prosecuted. You simply "catch as catch can" and deal with what/who you catch.
Bob, you didnt quite understand my point. My fault of course. Let me try once more. And please grant me your protection as a mod.
We have always the same debate if it goes about crime, revenge and that IMO a democratic system should do this or that, for all not execute death penalties.
I do NOT contradict because Vas as you think was taken by chance, and not also the others, but I say, again with your protection as mod I am allowed to have the opinion that one should never use undemocratic, unethical methods to "reveil" something other than blackmail, murder or such cases.
I was never your opponent in making fertilizer but I was arguing that such a thought should be published lightly and for all under no stress but in a debate in computerchess circles.
We have no murder case at all. We have Rybka, the best program. By a notable scientist from MIT. My argument is this. You think there is something. You research. All in silence. Not like Donninger. Everythink about using illegal methods are banished in public. Then you come closer to the core. You evaluate, here 10% Fruit if ever, there then the strikingly new stuff that brings the extra power. All original Rajlich. Then you consider: is this now a murder case or should it be a witchhunt after Vas? Are you God? Then you inform your collegues all silently. Guys this Vas is a talent.Rybka is years ahead. He should be told to clean a bit and case closed. NB Fabien had retired and wanted that his code lived on. All programmers could profit but only Vas understood it well enough.
You keep side-stepping the _key_ issue. I do not believe anyone doubts Vas is a gifted programmer. There are enough of them both past and present involved in computer chess. That's not the issue. The issue is simply about copying someone's source code, code that is released under the GPL, which says that if you copy any part of it, you must release _your_ modified version's source code as well, and it, too, will be constrained by the GPL as well.
This was not done. Anyone can look at my code, and look for code copied from other programs. The only code I have used is the magic move generation code that has been used by many others. And the Nalimov EGTB access code that has been used by many others. Not one line of the search, or the evaluation, or anything else has been copied from another program. And that is an easy claim to verify. Most follow that methodology. But not _all_.
So my verdict you reacted in lynch manner without any data about those who might have taken but with less genius. You was driven by obsession against Vas but not because was guilty in any real life sense. Perhaps it was a fault, but that was corrected. Case closed and not such a campaign. You absolutely overreacted.
This was not a "lynching" There was a public trial, with a jury of his peers evaluating his code and comparing it to Fruit. There's no "overreacting". There was simply a search for the truth. I find it _extremely_ unlikely that a new program comes out of the woodwork and is at the top of the heap in a year or two. Even Hsu's first attempt fell flat, and he had copied all of Belle with Ken's permission (Ken worked with him on the project, in fact).
Rybka is not the only such example of "instant stardom". There are others. There will _continue_ to be others.
But Rybka was the one that was caught because of the fruit-rybka-strelka lineage.
Now you are basing on anonymous jerks. You agree with multi-time cloners like Norm. Look, this is ok in extreme crime cases, but not in such computerchess sheneningas.
I am a "never-time cloner". DItto for Zach. He is improving his program by hard work, just as we are doing. Others that helped in the analysis did the same. None were overnight wonders that just burst onto the scene with a world-champion program. So who are the "multi-time cloners" other than norm, who helped us but was not the "primary mover" in the analysis???
You are a free mann, so you can still correct and change your mind. You are Hyatt, not McCarthy, right? Why was this noble social doctor called back and disarmed? Because he was all wrong? Nope. But because the costs for society became too high in all the mistrust.
Bob, dont feed the anonymous jerks. Dont feed blackmailers. Dont feed cloners. But show some respect for a guy like Vasik, who still has the strongest entity available.
For the best of computerchess.
Let' not be Tall Poppy infected. Let's believe in honesty of people from MIT.
If it looks like a duck, walks like a duck, flies like a duck, quacks like a duck, swims like a duck, and even tastes like a duck, it's a damned duck. I'm not willing to say "it's a chicken" and move on. Because then _I_ would be the one making false statements.
P.S. Please add the NOT into the text where I have forgotten. For me as a German it's extremely difficult to adapt to that special trick in your language. Sorry. The attentive reader will discover what was meant.
). Papers and works in the field are the things that do that.
