Houdini is getting some wider press. Congratulations!

[S.Taylor]

I personally have never understood the whole story. Obviously, copywrighted stuff must not be stolen, but i know never understood anything about all this, and therefore never commented, until now.
But i can see that there is no proof that Vas did not do anything that was ussed against him, nor that it was less "bad" than this.
And we also see that all the other "clones", or whatever, never reached Rybka in elo.
So this HAS to be a million times different from them, anyway.
So i suppose i can safely say openly that i fully support Houdini in every way, not only in his miraculous engine. (and if i'm totally wrong, please may someone send me the main points in a pm, if convenient).
No one would have ever imagined that Rybka would be overtaken whilst its author was still active!

This should force Rybka to quickly release its full strength version if it has one, and even if it does, due to Houdini, then Houdini has done a good job. But, Houdini too, can be preparing a further prompt answer to Rybkas answer (if there IS one).

[S.Taylor]

Oh, and therefore, it certainly deserves the wider press. Big time. Why not?

[Darkmoon]

I just don't understand why people attach so much of their own self-worth to an achievement they had nothing to do with. Don't you have something of your own to take pride in?

This is an euphemism for: "Dude, get a life."

That phenomenon is an interesting side of the human nature. It is very often associated with some level of fanatism as commonly found in some fundamentalist religious people and also in football supporters.

It's odd that you mention football because I almost included an anecdote about this. Years ago an acquaintance of mine was depressed for about 2 weeks because his football team lost the super bowl. I just can't imagine how such a thing can mean so much to someone who seemed to take the loss as a personal failing on his own part. Had "his" team won he would have been flying high and probably would have felt like he was superior to everyone else for a couple of weeks.

May be he bet the family jackpot on the losing team.

Good theory, but no, he was just a little out of balance and was always like this. He was one of those guys you can see a mile away that he has low self-esteem.

He was an extreme case but millions of football fanatics get depressed or elated when there team wins and it's very obvious that they are attaching at least a portion of their own personal ego to the team they believe represents there own personal successes and failures. It's sad, because they let the accomplishments of others serve as proxies for their own self-worth - and in most case they don't have a fraction of the talent of the athletes they identify with.

It's like this with the Robbo and Houdini nut-cases too. Low self-esteem, and they attach their loyalties to a winner so that they can feel like a winner.

How about the Rybka nut-cases,I suppose this applies to them too....
Dr.D

Yes, it applies to them too. There are Rybka worshipers out there who have this same exact mentality. Even though they did not write the Rybka program they feel hurt when Houdini passes Rybka - as if it is a personal failing of theirs.

I think it's totally asinine when someone either gloats or feels "put down" by such immature comments when neither has any skill of their own.

I think this kind of fixated hatred is fomented and manifested out of a feeling of powerlessness-Interestingly enough- isolate them from the group that they identify with, and they become fearful to act- they need the cover of the group-and very rarely if ever contradict the group that they identify with.

[michiguel]

I just don't understand why people attach so much of their own self-worth to an achievement they had nothing to do with. Don't you have something of your own to take pride in?

This is an euphemism for: "Dude, get a life."

That phenomenon is an interesting side of the human nature. It is very often associated with some level of fanatism as commonly found in some fundamentalist religious people and also in football supporters.

It's odd that you mention football because I almost included an anecdote about this. Years ago an acquaintance of mine was depressed for about 2 weeks because his football team lost the super bowl. I just can't imagine how such a thing can mean so much to someone who seemed to take the loss as a personal failing on his own part. Had "his" team won he would have been flying high and probably would have felt like he was superior to everyone else for a couple of weeks.

May be he bet the family jackpot on the losing team.

Good theory, but no, he was just a little out of balance and was always like this. He was one of those guys you can see a mile away that he has low self-esteem.

He was an extreme case but millions of football fanatics get depressed or elated when there team wins and it's very obvious that they are attaching at least a portion of their own personal ego to the team they believe represents there own personal successes and failures.

Don, you are over simplistic! There are gazillions of fans over the world who are passionate and do not have problems with self esteem. If you have been following your team (yes, your team because in many places in the world you are a member, not just a ticket holder) for decades, your father made you a fan, your most fond memories of childhood are attached to it, and it happens that your team lost a great and unique chance... if you are not sad for a week, you are cold blooded!

For instance, when the Argentine soccer team plays (true for many others), it is more that a team playing. There is a culture, a style of play, and philosophy behind it, as well as a network of human interactions and friendships. When you lose, depending how you lose, you may be sad not because your team failure is yours, but for many other reasons. For instance, you started to love the players who like gladiators _bust_ their asses in the field. They represent us, because all of us played soccer and we send the best we have. So they are the tip of the iceberg, and we are the part that support that tip in many ways. When the team wins we all benefit from it. Even economically!

You describe a pathological behavior, but there are many ways to be passionate, sad or happy (even looking crazy), and still be healthy about it.

Miguel

It's sad, because they let the accomplishments of others serve as proxies for their own self-worth - and in most case they don't have a fraction of the talent of the athletes they identify with.

It's like this with the Robbo and Houdini nut-cases too. Low self-esteem, and they attach their loyalties to a winner so that they can feel like a winner.

[rbarreira]

Don, you are over simplistic! There are gazillions of fans over the world who are passionate and do not have problems with self esteem. If you have been following your team (yes, your team because in many places in the world you are a member, not just a ticket holder) for decades, your father made you a fan, your most fond memories of childhood are attached to it, and it happens that your team lost a great and unique chance... if you are not sad for a week, you are cold blooded!

For instance, when the Argentine soccer team plays (true for many others), it is more that a team playing. There is a culture, a style of play, and philosophy behind it, as well as a network of human interactions and friendships. When you lose, depending how you lose, you may be sad not because your team failure is yours, but for many other reasons. For instance, you started to love the players who like gladiators _bust_ their asses in the field. They represent us, because all of us played soccer and we send the best we have. So they are the tip of the iceberg, and we are the part that support that tip in many ways. When the team wins we all benefit from it. Even economically!

You describe a pathological behavior, but there are many ways to be passionate, sad or happy (even looking crazy), and still be healthy about it.

Miguel

Very true... To give a computer chess analogy, would anyone here ridicule computer chess developers for being happy about a Man vs Machine victory for a chess program that's better than their own?

[Roger Brown]

Don, you are over simplistic! There are gazillions of fans over the world who are passionate and do not have problems with self esteem. If you have been following your team (yes, your team because in many places in the world you are a member, not just a ticket holder) for decades, your father made you a fan, your most fond memories of childhood are attached to it, and it happens that your team lost a great and unique chance... if you are not sad for a week, you are cold blooded!

For instance, when the Argentine soccer team plays (true for many others), it is more that a team playing. There is a culture, a style of play, and philosophy behind it, as well as a network of human interactions and friendships. When you lose, depending how you lose, you may be sad not because your team failure is yours, but for many other reasons. For instance, you started to love the players who like gladiators _bust_ their asses in the field. They represent us, because all of us played soccer and we send the best we have. So they are the tip of the iceberg, and we are the part that support that tip in many ways. When the team wins we all benefit from it. Even economically!

You describe a pathological behavior, but there are many ways to be passionate, sad or happy (even looking crazy), and still be healthy about it.

Miguel

Hello Miguel,

It is a bit more than overly simplistic I think. It is a bit sad that the world must be seen in this way. Sticking with the football example for a moment, why do we follow sports? I for one will never create the artistry, the beauty of a Messi or a Ronaldo in full flow creates on a football ( it is not soccer, this game was there first!) pitch.

Does it make me crazy to cheer on my players, my team? Similarly, I could not write a chess program to save my life. Does that mean that I do not cheer when Baron or Gaviota or Rebel (Dos version!) or Crafty does well in a tournament or promotes at the WBEC.

I enjoy the performance of my sporting and programming heroes and it is not sad at all. When the Brazil team with Zico, Socrates et al LOST to Italy (allowing one man a hat trick) I literally shed tears because that team, that team was beautiful in its expression of the game. That Brazilian team represented the pinnacle of the beautiful game and the rest of the WC that year was an anti-climax.

I think the persons who do not get that fail to understand what makes sport, sport. My self worth is not an issue and I guess if you see it that way I cannot say that there is something wrong with you but give me fire, give me passion....Life is too short not to feel them.

Back on topic.....hmmmm...I guess I understand and agree with where you are coming from.

Later.

[Don]

I just don't understand why people attach so much of their own self-worth to an achievement they had nothing to do with. Don't you have something of your own to take pride in?

This is an euphemism for: "Dude, get a life."

That phenomenon is an interesting side of the human nature. It is very often associated with some level of fanatism as commonly found in some fundamentalist religious people and also in football supporters.

It's odd that you mention football because I almost included an anecdote about this. Years ago an acquaintance of mine was depressed for about 2 weeks because his football team lost the super bowl. I just can't imagine how such a thing can mean so much to someone who seemed to take the loss as a personal failing on his own part. Had "his" team won he would have been flying high and probably would have felt like he was superior to everyone else for a couple of weeks.

May be he bet the family jackpot on the losing team.

Good theory, but no, he was just a little out of balance and was always like this. He was one of those guys you can see a mile away that he has low self-esteem.

He was an extreme case but millions of football fanatics get depressed or elated when there team wins and it's very obvious that they are attaching at least a portion of their own personal ego to the team they believe represents there own personal successes and failures.

Don, you are over simplistic! There are gazillions of fans over the world who are passionate and do not have problems with self esteem. If you have been following your team (yes, your team because in many places in the world you are a member, not just a ticket holder) for decades, your father made you a fan, your most fond memories of childhood are attached to it, and it happens that your team lost a great and unique chance... if you are not sad for a week, you are cold blooded!

Yes, most people consider this harmless, but I do not. If you poke around on the web you can find numerous cases of fist fights, gang violence and such by fans of rival teams. I don't remember the specifics but just a few years ago there was a major incident in soccer involving massive fighting by the fans and several deaths. It's was not just isolated to a minority of idiots.

It's not just sports - it's everything. It's race, religion, politics and nationality that makes people behave like this. To me sport fanaticism has all the characteristics of racism. It's almost like rooting for the guy that is of the same race as you. If it's not the same race it's the same country (a countryman) and yet one is consider acceptable and the other is not. Even though your favorite team may have nothing to do with race or nationalism, there is SOMETHING that you identify with and leaves you feeling up or down depending on result.

When I was in high school in the midwest USA we would have pep rallies before a game against another high school team and this led to incidents and fights against the other school. It was no surprise, because the purpose of the pep rally was to make not just our team, but our school feel like it was superior to everyone else, and the other school to seem highly inferior (and although not verbalized, "un-American.") I was just a kid and did not know how to express myself, but it seemed very wrong to me at the time and yet everyone seemed to be into it. Steve Martin the comedian joked about this when he made up his own cheer, "die you gravy sucking pigs." But his exaggeration was actually not much of an exaggeration. Of course it didn't work well because the other school and team also felt the same way. Put two groups of people together who think they are more important than the other and you will see the sparks fly.

I have never seen anything good come of this kind of thing, whether it involved football teams, race, religion or nationalism (which is another form of religion and worship.)

I think anyone that gets involved in any of this has some self-esteem issues. Thinking you are better than others is a self-esteem issue because it caters to peoples egotistical desire to feel superior to others and this makes them treat other people as if they actually are inferior.

For instance, when the Argentine soccer team plays (true for many others), it is more that a team playing. There is a culture, a style of play, and philosophy behind it, as well as a network of human interactions and friendships. When you lose, depending how you lose, you may be sad not because your team failure is yours, but for many other reasons. For instance, you started to love the players who like gladiators _bust_ their asses in the field. They represent us, because all of us played soccer and we send the best we have. So they are the tip of the iceberg, and we are the part that support that tip in many ways. When the team wins we all benefit from it. Even economically!

What about when the team that loses? What about the OTHER team that loses when we win? You are seeing this from the point of view of "we must put the other person down" so that we can benefit from it without considering the other persons point of view.

I recognize that my point of view is probably not popular and I don't want to go into battle with the entire forum on this - but if you look very closely at any kind of "group superiority" issue, which could be sports teams, race, nationality, religion and so on, I think you will find that much more bad than good comes of it.

You describe a pathological behavior, but there are many ways to be passionate, sad or happy (even looking crazy), and still be healthy about it.

Of course, but not by seeking to put others down. I'm passionate about chess and I'm sad when someone I love dies. I'm happy when I can help someone with something.

Miguel

It's sad, because they let the accomplishments of others serve as proxies for their own self-worth - and in most case they don't have a fraction of the talent of the athletes they identify with.

It's like this with the Robbo and Houdini nut-cases too. Low self-esteem, and they attach their loyalties to a winner so that they can feel like a winner.

[hgm]

Indeed it is clear: Houdini, inspiring the same kind of fanatism in its followers, should be considered a danger to society, and only for that reason be outlawed!

I can well understand why respectable organizations like CCRL and CEGT want nothing to do with it!

[Don]

Indeed it is clear: Houdini, inspiring the same kind of fanatism in its followers, should be considered a danger to society, and only for that reason be outlawed!

I can well understand why respectable organizations like CCRL and CEGT want nothing to do with it!

And so should Rybka, because it too inspires fanatical devotion

[Don]

Check this out:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Football_hooliganism

This article shows that this kind of violence is actually organized, we just don't hear that much about it. Tell me these guys don't have self-esteem issues.