Are chessprogrammers jealaous ?

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bob
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Re: Are chessprogrammers jealaous ?

Post by bob » Mon Feb 14, 2011 11:31 pm

Hood wrote:But why that ones who are not quiet are attacking others.

Publishing Ippolit open source was a real revolution and the revolution has won. It is a fact. Asking revolution if it is legal does not make a point.
It is a fact that we have to accept and live with.

Every programmer can take the sources analyse , modify them and prepare new engine. If he is talented he improve it, if not then not ;-).

The discussion about derivatives, clones in a current way does not make a point.
Had mankind not used the inventions of the predecessors we would have been in caves still. :-).

It looks that many prefere us to be in caves :-( .

Rgds
Hood

If the auto industry had followed that principle, we would still be driving 5,000 pound autos powered by a flat-head 4 cylinder making 80 hp and getting 10 miles per gallon. We would still be watching black and white analog TV, with computers requiring a room to hold them, etc.

One doesn't do significant improvements until one understands what one is working on. The derivative makers do not understand much about what they have copied...

However, the motive is about proper credit more than anything else. One does not take something, make some tweaks, whether small are large, and then claim that as a purely original piece of work...

Milos
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Re: Are chessprogrammers jealaous ?

Post by Milos » Mon Feb 14, 2011 11:34 pm

bob wrote:The derivative makers do not understand much about what they have copied...
BS generalization. It's like saying nobody except you understands Crafty...

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Re: Are chessprogrammers jealaous ?

Post by bob » Tue Feb 15, 2011 2:48 am

Milos wrote:
bob wrote:The derivative makers do not understand much about what they have copied...
BS generalization. It's like saying nobody except you understands Crafty...
I doubt anyone can explain the entire program, from parallel search to endpoint evaluation... and know what is done where... and how... and most importantly, why...

You only have to read the posts of a few of the copiers to determine that...

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mhull
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Re: Are chessprogrammers jealaous ?

Post by mhull » Tue Feb 15, 2011 7:16 am

hgm wrote:I don't think any Chess programmers really care much about this. It is the non-programming, non-testing,non-tournament-organizing basically no-good-for-anything people that are incessantly making trouble about this issue. Come to think of it, they are actually behaving a lot like they are eaten by jealousy. Not sure what they could be jealous about, though. If they were cloners, they might envie the recogntion authors of original engines get for their hard work, and their 'own' programs merely are shrugged off as clones. But they don't manage even that...
This syndrome was never more evident than after the Deeper-Blue victory over Kasparov. Then as now it was mostly non-programmers who were jealous -- mostly natives of Europe, whose PC chess programs were the strongest on that platform at the time. So when the great prize of defeating the world champion went instead to an iconic capitalist American corporation, it made for a perfect storm of jealousy. Endless threads of DBII trashing continued for many years afterward.
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Rolf
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Re: Are chessprogrammers jealaous ?

Post by Rolf » Tue Feb 15, 2011 8:48 am

mhull wrote: This syndrome was never more evident than after the Deeper-Blue victory over Kasparov. Then as now it was mostly non-programmers who were jealous -- mostly natives of Europe, whose PC chess programs were the strongest on that platform at the time. So when the great prize of defeating the world champion went instead to an iconic capitalist American corporation, it made for a perfect storm of jealousy. Endless threads of DBII trashing continued for many years afterward.
Dont know what protest against out-psyching a naive World Champion by a greedy company should be anything near to jealousy.

It is one point that it was the beginning of a new epoche when humans could no longer hope for a safe win over machines, but the concrete show act would never have been the right moment yet. Kasparov could have won if he

1) had not accepted the imposte PR before the event (hoax1)
2) had supervised the match conditions (hoax2)
3) had firmly asked for a minimum of 20 gamescores of the DB2 chess so that he knew at least a bit of the improved setting (hoax3)
4) had used advisors who had a minimal idea of the overall twisted attitude of sports life in the USA when a national event is always impostered as another World Championship, see baseball with two or three nations at the start or American Football which is only played in the US, plus the mental precondition of winning by all means against all known rules of fair play; here en plus the absurdity that scientists with an alleged research project who needed a human top player, invited him, faked good respect and then shocked him with impoliteness, what was already enough to confuse a superstitious guy like Kasparov(hoax4)
5) had fixed a priori how the machine output was observed by a Kasparov team member too, and was to be gotten in real time at the instant whithout any manipulation (hoax5)

Let's make a fair conclusion, all the hoax, all the unfairness, the absurd psychology of the whole event, cant change the trivial truth. Without it IBM wouldnt have thrown such a sum of money out of their window. Cheated or not, Kasparov got enough money for playing the naive victim. The scenario was originally developped in boxing where outright fraud is part of the whole deal. Also here the unique variation for the USA called wrestling. If you watch this you have a direct insight into American sports and business rules. Apparently all this was unknown to Kasparov. But I cannot decide if he's just the victim or did he play this for a huge sum of money. Ok, my choice is, he's on the money, the rest is - Stanislavski.
-Popper and Lakatos are good but I'm stuck on Leibowitz

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Re: Are chessprogrammers jealaous ?

Post by mhull » Tue Feb 15, 2011 3:45 pm

Rolf wrote:
mhull wrote: This syndrome was never more evident than after the Deeper-Blue victory over Kasparov. Then as now it was mostly non-programmers who were jealous -- mostly natives of Europe, whose PC chess programs were the strongest on that platform at the time. So when the great prize of defeating the world champion went instead to an iconic capitalist American corporation, it made for a perfect storm of jealousy. Endless threads of DBII trashing continued for many years afterward.
Dont know what protest against out-psyching a naive World Champion by a greedy company should be anything near to jealousy.

It is one point that it was the beginning of a new epoche when humans could no longer hope for a safe win over machines, but the concrete show act would never have been the right moment yet. Kasparov could have won if he

1) had not accepted the imposte PR before the event (hoax1)
2) had supervised the match conditions (hoax2)
3) had firmly asked for a minimum of 20 gamescores of the DB2 chess so that he knew at least a bit of the improved setting (hoax3)
4) had used advisors who had a minimal idea of the overall twisted attitude of sports life in the USA when a national event is always impostered as another World Championship, see baseball with two or three nations at the start or American Football which is only played in the US, plus the mental precondition of winning by all means against all known rules of fair play; here en plus the absurdity that scientists with an alleged research project who needed a human top player, invited him, faked good respect and then shocked him with impoliteness, what was already enough to confuse a superstitious guy like Kasparov(hoax4)
5) had fixed a priori how the machine output was observed by a Kasparov team member too, and was to be gotten in real time at the instant whithout any manipulation (hoax5)

Let's make a fair conclusion, all the hoax, all the unfairness, the absurd psychology of the whole event, cant change the trivial truth. Without it IBM wouldnt have thrown such a sum of money out of their window. Cheated or not, Kasparov got enough money for playing the naive victim. The scenario was originally developped in boxing where outright fraud is part of the whole deal. Also here the unique variation for the USA called wrestling. If you watch this you have a direct insight into American sports and business rules. Apparently all this was unknown to Kasparov. But I cannot decide if he's just the victim or did he play this for a huge sum of money. Ok, my choice is, he's on the money, the rest is - Stanislavski.
I rest my case.
Matthew Hull

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Re: Are chessprogrammers jealaous ?

Post by Roger Brown » Tue Feb 15, 2011 5:46 pm

Rolf wrote:
mhull wrote: This syndrome was never more evident than after the Deeper-Blue victory over Kasparov. Then as now it was mostly non-programmers who were jealous -- mostly natives of Europe, whose PC chess programs were the strongest on that platform at the time. So when the great prize of defeating the world champion went instead to an iconic capitalist American corporation, it made for a perfect storm of jealousy. Endless threads of DBII trashing continued for many years afterward.
Dont know what protest against out-psyching a naive World Champion by a greedy company should be anything near to jealousy.

It is one point that it was the beginning of a new epoche when humans could no longer hope for a safe win over machines, but the concrete show act would never have been the right moment yet. Kasparov could have won if he

1) had not accepted the imposte PR before the event (hoax1)
2) had supervised the match conditions (hoax2)
3) had firmly asked for a minimum of 20 gamescores of the DB2 chess so that he knew at least a bit of the improved setting (hoax3)
4) had used advisors who had a minimal idea of the overall twisted attitude of sports life in the USA when a national event is always impostered as another World Championship, see baseball with two or three nations at the start or American Football which is only played in the US, plus the mental precondition of winning by all means against all known rules of fair play; here en plus the absurdity that scientists with an alleged research project who needed a human top player, invited him, faked good respect and then shocked him with impoliteness, what was already enough to confuse a superstitious guy like Kasparov(hoax4)
5) had fixed a priori how the machine output was observed by a Kasparov team member too, and was to be gotten in real time at the instant whithout any manipulation (hoax5)

Let's make a fair conclusion, all the hoax, all the unfairness, the absurd psychology of the whole event, cant change the trivial truth. Without it IBM wouldnt have thrown such a sum of money out of their window. Cheated or not, Kasparov got enough money for playing the naive victim. The scenario was originally developped in boxing where outright fraud is part of the whole deal. Also here the unique variation for the USA called wrestling. If you watch this you have a direct insight into American sports and business rules. Apparently all this was unknown to Kasparov. But I cannot decide if he's just the victim or did he play this for a huge sum of money. Ok, my choice is, he's on the money, the rest is - Stanislavski.

Hello Rolf,

So far I have left your posts alone because.....well because I believe that one day you might actually write something on point.

Please do not indulge in such long bouts of verbiage if this is the end result.

Later.

Hood
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Re: Are chessprogrammers jealaous ?

Post by Hood » Tue Feb 15, 2011 6:38 pm

bob wrote:
Hood wrote:But why that ones who are not quiet are attacking others.

Publishing Ippolit open source was a real revolution and the revolution has won. It is a fact. Asking revolution if it is legal does not make a point.
It is a fact that we have to accept and live with.

Every programmer can take the sources analyse , modify them and prepare new engine. If he is talented he improve it, if not then not ;-).

The discussion about derivatives, clones in a current way does not make a point.
Had mankind not used the inventions of the predecessors we would have been in caves still. :-).

It looks that many prefere us to be in caves :-( .

Rgds
Hood

If the auto industry had followed that principle, we would still be driving 5,000 pound autos powered by a flat-head 4 cylinder making 80 hp and getting 10 miles per gallon. We would still be watching black and white analog TV, with computers requiring a room to hold them, etc.

One doesn't do significant improvements until one understands what one is working on. The derivative makers do not understand much about what they have copied...

However, the motive is about proper credit more than anything else. One does not take something, make some tweaks, whether small are large, and then claim that as a purely original piece of work...
Car industry... :-).
Modern car industry- designers of the frame do not know how engine works. Every team is responsible for his part of design. So there is not neccessity to know all details to improve.

It is enough to enhance 1 part of the programm to make the improvement.
single part to single part small improvement but many times and we have quick run forward.

Trying to understand everything would have hold us in old cars. :-)

Rgds
Hood
Polish National tragedy in Smoleńsk. President and all delegation murdered or killed.
Cui bono ?

There are not bugs free programs.
There are programs with undiscovered bugs.




Ashes to ashes dust to dust. Alleluia.

Hood
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Re: Are chessprogrammers jealaous ?

Post by Hood » Tue Feb 15, 2011 6:47 pm

Don wrote:
Hood wrote:But why that ones who are not quiet are attacking others.

Publishing Ippolit open source was a real revolution and the revolution has won. It is a fact. Asking revolution if it is legal does not make a point.
It is a fact that we have to accept and live with.

Every programmer can take the sources analyse , modify them and prepare new engine. If he is talented he improve it, if not then not ;-).

The discussion about derivatives, clones in a current way does not make a point.
Had mankind not used the inventions of the predecessors we would have been in caves still. :-).

It looks that many prefere us to be in caves :-( .
This is about taking credit for the work of others and using the work of others for commercial purposes. You do not seem to have a handle on what the actual issue is.

A lot of people here are incensed at the idea that Vas took an open source program and used it for commercial profit and it saddens me that you condone this in the name of "progress."

I am highly in favor of such open source projects as Stockfish. If you think this is about jealously, why has stockfish and their authors remain completely free of any kind of accusation or trouble?

The reason is that their project is completely open and it's obvious from the sources that it is original work, even though it borrows all the same ideas we all use. Also, they do not lurk in the shadows - they are open and giving and do not have any political agenda's or axes to grind.

So please spare us your capitalistic philosophy of progress at any cost. It's not all about the "product", it's about people.

I know about what the handle is: money or fame :-)
Do you know other handle ?

Using other experiences is a way mankind is going, fighting against it is pointless.
It has nth to capitalism, communism, socialism etc. It is a human nature.
I do not speak that it is good but it is how it is.

Rgds
Hood
Polish National tragedy in Smoleńsk. President and all delegation murdered or killed.
Cui bono ?

There are not bugs free programs.
There are programs with undiscovered bugs.




Ashes to ashes dust to dust. Alleluia.

Hood
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Re: Are chessprogrammers jealaous ?

Post by Hood » Tue Feb 15, 2011 6:56 pm

bob wrote:
I doubt anyone can explain the entire program, from parallel search to endpoint evaluation... and know what is done where... and how... and most importantly, why...

It is nice to know all but... is it necessary ?

The big IT systems consist of many screens, calculations programs, databases files. No one knows all about. Sometimes no one knows how it is working but it is being used and is being useful.
Such a system is developed further, even. :-)

Rgds Hood
Polish National tragedy in Smoleńsk. President and all delegation murdered or killed.
Cui bono ?

There are not bugs free programs.
There are programs with undiscovered bugs.




Ashes to ashes dust to dust. Alleluia.

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