Test Position: Nikolic Fischer revisited 19...Bg4!!

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peter
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Re: Update: 20.Qb1! seems to defend

Post by peter » Fri Nov 28, 2014 8:56 am

Lyudmil Tsvetkov wrote:The fen does not matter, it is the position that matters.
?
Lyudmil Tsvetkov wrote: I do not know, I just looked at the position and thought it was won.

On Qa2, Rac8 should be enough.

[d]2r1r1k1/p4p2/p1P2np1/2Pp1q1p/3PpP2/2N2bPP/QR1B1P1K/5R2 w - - 0 12
Which position, dear Lyudmil, please tell me, how comes this again?
The black Knight at h6 was after 24th black move in my line, when you hopped in, it was on g4 in your position, so I looked for one in my line fitting to this, now your Knight is at f6 again and you tell me in the next one funny posting, I should put it there.

But in what a variant, dear Lyudmil, with which moves after which moves?

:)

Please read my start- posting once again and the line after 22.a6 I gave there, and if you really want to discuss that, tell us the move of this given line you change, if possible with a number and the moves you think could follow, thus you can show as many positions and fens accordingly as you want, otherwise we won't be able to get your thoughts, dear Lyudmil, as deep as they might be.
:)
Peter.

Lyudmil Tsvetkov
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Re: Update: 20.Qb1! seems to defend

Post by Lyudmil Tsvetkov » Fri Nov 28, 2014 9:20 am

I do not know what is not clear, those are just transpositions.
In your line, instead of 24...Nh6, black plays Nf6 25.Kh2 ba6 26. bc6 Qf5, and on Qa2 - Rac8.

peter
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Full name: Peter Martan

Re: Update: 20.Qb1! seems to defend

Post by peter » Fri Nov 28, 2014 11:08 am

Lyudmil Tsvetkov wrote:I do not know what is not clear, those are just transpositions.
In your line, instead of 24...Nh6, black plays Nf6 25.Kh2 ba6 26. bc6 Qf5, and on Qa2 - Rac8.
Well, well, Lyudmil, but then we are at the position with the white King on h2,

[d]r3r1k1/p4p2/p1P2np1/2Pp1q1p/3PpP2/2N2bPP/1R1B1P1K/1Q3R2 w - - 0 27


not on g1, where you had it in your very first posting to all that:

http://www.talkchess.com/forum/viewtop ... 49&t=54427
Lyudmil Tsvetkov wrote:Here a6 ba6 bc6 Qf5 wins

[d]r3r1k1/p4p2/p1P3p1/2Pp1q1p/3PpPn1/2N2bPP/1R1B1P2/1Q3RK1 w - - 0 10
That's what I told you from the very start.
Now, that you realized that and started giving at least a single number of the move you changed in my line, thus finally coming to my position of my second posting to you

http://www.talkchess.com/forum/posting. ... e&p=598758
peter wrote:
Lyudmil Tsvetkov wrote:Here a6 ba6 bc6 Qf5 wins

[d]r3r1k1/p4p2/p1P3p1/2Pp1q1p/3PpPn1/2N2bPP/1R1B1P2/1Q3RK1 w - - 0 10
How do you reach this position, Lyudmil?
Fen says 10th move, in my variant I don't come there with 9 moves transposing in any way I see.
Can you give your line, please?
...

I can get to a position similar to yours at 26th move ...Qf5 instead of Qxc6, but then the white king is on h2, not on g1 as in your Position.

Here's the one I come to after 26...Qf5?:

[D]r3r1k1/p4p2/p1P3pn/2Pp1q1p/3PpP2/2N2bPP/1R1B1P1K/1Q3R2 w - - 0 1
For what is your variant better than mine?

After your
19... Bg4 20. Qb1 Nf3+ 21. Bxf3 Bxf3

22. a6 Ng4+ 23. Kg1 Bxf4 24. exf4

...Nf6 25. Kh2 bxa6 26. bxc6 Qf5 27. Qa2 Rac8 28. Rb7 Rxc6 with probably 29...Kg7, which again can transpose with Rxc6 maybe, as a matter of fact you just had to eliminate the black c6- pawn yet too, before you can continue with the Kingside- attack.
The Rook- moves of yours are as many as the Queen- moves you spare in this way.

I don't see Black coming any further in the next two or three moves in your line than I had come to after 24...Nh6, and latest with 31...Kg7 the Black position in my line is as well as won, even if it takes some more moves (but not more than 5 for sure) to make it easy to be seen and clear for the engines' evals.

You'll probably say, so it is with your moves too, and even if I don't think so exactly, I'd let it be for good again if you agree with my main points:

19...Bg4 is a winning move for sure, if the sac is taken some faster than after declining it.

20.Qb1 followed by 22.a6 seems to be the toughest defence for White, so yet the full point will be achieved by Black too, it's just a matter of a few moves more or less only anyhow.

Ok for you, Lyudmil?

If you think, you get a better position for Black up to move 31 than in my line, please give at least as many moves missing up to there from yours, it's two or three of them only anyhow, so we can compare the two positions at the same amount of moves, let's say at 31st black one
Peter.

Lyudmil Tsvetkov
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Re: Update: 20.Qb1! seems to defend

Post by Lyudmil Tsvetkov » Fri Nov 28, 2014 11:50 am

Problem is that after Rac8, white has an only move - h4, after which the win takes a bit longer.

[d]2r1r1k1/p4p2/p1P2np1/2Pp1q1p/3PpP1P/2N2bP1/QR1B1P1K/5R2 b - - 0 10

Black should play now necessarily e3, and after fe3 this should be won somehow, but it takes some time.

[d]2r1r1k1/p4p2/p1P2np1/2Pp1q1p/3P1P1P/2N1PbP1/QR1B3K/5R2 b - - 0 11

So that my initial assessment black has some 70cps edge was not that wrong after all. :)

peter
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Re: Update: 20.Qb1! seems to defend

Post by peter » Fri Nov 28, 2014 12:40 pm

Lyudmil Tsvetkov wrote:Problem is that after Rac8, white has an only move - h4, after which the win takes a bit longer.
I like 28.Rb7 even less, but anyhow you see, 24...Nh6 might yet be more effectfull, don't you?
Peter.

Lyudmil Tsvetkov
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Joined: Tue Jun 12, 2012 10:41 am

Re: Update: 20.Qb1! seems to defend

Post by Lyudmil Tsvetkov » Fri Nov 28, 2014 12:42 pm

peter wrote:
Lyudmil Tsvetkov wrote:Problem is that after Rac8, white has an only move - h4, after which the win takes a bit longer.
I like 28.Rb7 even less, but anyhow you see, 24...Nh6 might yet be more effectfull, don't you?
What is the point of Nh6 and where does the line end?

peter
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Re: Update: 20.Qb1! seems to defend

Post by peter » Fri Nov 28, 2014 12:57 pm

Lyudmil Tsvetkov wrote: What is the point of Nh6 and where does the line end?
Lyudmil, oh Lyudmil!
:)
http://www.talkchess.com/forum/viewtopi ... 01&t=54427
Peter.

Lyudmil Tsvetkov
Posts: 6052
Joined: Tue Jun 12, 2012 10:41 am

Re: Update: 20.Qb1! seems to defend

Post by Lyudmil Tsvetkov » Fri Nov 28, 2014 1:16 pm

peter wrote:
Lyudmil Tsvetkov wrote: What is the point of Nh6 and where does the line end?
Lyudmil, oh Lyudmil!
:)
http://www.talkchess.com/forum/viewtopi ... 01&t=54427
I mean, do you have a fen of where it ends, because I can not envision where it ends just by looking at the PV.

Btw., I looked a bit closer at the position, and it seems the easiest winning line after a6 is g5

[d]r3r1k1/pp1q1p2/P1p2n1b/1PPp2pp/3PpN2/2N1PbPP/1R1B1P1K/1Q3R2 w - - 0 5

and after ab7 Qb7 bc6 Qc6 Ng2 h4 seems to be most devastating, but I do not know if the winning line is shorter or longer.

[d]r3r1k1/p4p2/2q2n1b/2Pp2p1/3Pp2p/2N1PbPP/1R1B1PNK/1Q3R2 w - - 0 8

peter
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Re: Update: 20.Qb1! seems to defend

Post by peter » Fri Nov 28, 2014 2:52 pm

Lyudmil Tsvetkov wrote:
I mean, do you have a fen of where it ends, because I can not envision where it ends just by looking at the PV.
[d]1r2r3/5pk1/5np1/p1Pp3p/3P1P1P/2NqPbP1/Q6K/1RB2R2 w - - 0 36
Lyudmil Tsvetkov wrote:[
Btw., I looked a bit closer at the position, and it seems the easiest winning line after a6 is g5

[d]r3r1k1/pp1q1p2/P1p2n1b/1PPp2pp/3PpN2/2N1PbPP/1R1B1P1K/1Q3R2 w - - 0 5

and after ab7 Qb7 bc6 Qc6 Ng2 h4 seems to be most devastating, but I do not know if the winning line is shorter or longer.

[d]r3r1k1/p4p2/2q2n1b/2Pp2p1/3Pp2p/2N1PbPP/1R1B1PNK/1Q3R2 w - - 0 8
I'd say the length depends on where and when it is winning, Lyudmil, maybe you should simply make it as long as that?
:)
After 22.a6 g5? 23.axb7 Qxb7 I'd play 24.Ng2 at once and I don't see any black progress anymore. After 24...h4 25.Ne1 and the attack has lost most of its energy.

This get's too much posting for me again, Lyudmil, sorry, I'm out here again, but thanks for your effort
Peter.

yanquis1972
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Re: Update: 20.Qb1! seems to defend

Post by yanquis1972 » Fri Nov 28, 2014 7:57 pm

New game
[d]r3r1k1/p4p2/2q2n1b/2Pp2p1/3Pp2p/2N1PbPP/1R1B1P1K/1Q2NR2 b - - 0 1

Analysis by Stockfish 261114 64 BMI2:

8...hxg3+ 9.fxg3 g4 10.Rb7 Red8 11.h4 Rd7 12.Rb8+ Rxb8 13.Qxb8+ Kg7 14.Ng2 Qa6 15.Rf2 Re7 16.Kg1 Re6 17.Nf4 Re8 18.Qc7 Qa1+ 19.Rf1 Qb2 20.Nb1 Qb8 21.Qxb8 Rxb8 22.Nc3 Rb2
= (-0.26) Depth: 7/8 00:00:00 9kN
= (0.12) Depth: 23/40 00:00:08 81599kN, tb=1
8...g4 9.Rg1
= (0.06 ++) Depth: 24/40 00:00:09 92209kN, tb=1
= (0.25 --) Depth: 24/40 00:00:10 105MN, tb=2
8...hxg3+
+/= (0.38) Depth: 24/40 00:00:11 115MN, tb=2
= (0.17 ++) Depth: 25/40 00:00:11 119MN, tb=2
8...g4 9.Rg1 hxg3+ 10.Rxg3 Nh5 11.Nxf3 Nxg3 12.Ne5 Rxe5 13.dxe5 Nf5 14.hxg4 Nh4 15.f4 Nf3+ 16.Kg3 Qxc5 17.Rb5 Qc4 18.Nxd5 Nxd2 19.Rb8+ Kg7 20.Rxa8 Nf1+ 21.Kf2 Qxd5 22.Qb8 Qd2+ 23.Kxf1 Qd1+ 24.Kf2 Qd2+ 25.Kg3 Qxe3+ 26.Kh4 Qe1+ 27.Kh3 Qe3+ 28.Kh4
= (0.03 ++) Depth: 25/40 00:00:12 127MN, tb=2
= (0.00) Depth: 43/60 00:19:15 14167MN, tb=918334

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