Draw?

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Jack Lad
Posts: 8473
Joined: Wed Mar 08, 2006 9:01 pm
Location: UK

Draw?

Post by Jack Lad » Thu Aug 27, 2015 6:09 pm

[d] k6n/7R/6n1/8/3K4/8/3r3P/8 w - - 0 1
Can white hold the draw here or not?
1. Ke3 Rd8 2. Ke4 Re8+ 3. Kf5 Rf8+ 4. Ke4 Nf7 5. Kf5 Nfe5+ 6. Ke6 Nf3 7. Rh6 Nf4+ 8. Ke7 Rf5 9. Rh7 Re5+ 10. Kd7 Rc5 11. Kd6 Rd5+ 12. Ke7 Kb7 13. Rf7 Rd4 14. h3 Kc7 15. Ke8+ Kc6 16. Ra7
[d] 4K3/R7/2k5/8/3r1n2/5n1P/8/8 b - - 4 16
In this example black can now win in 20 moves with Nxh3.

Arpad Rusz
Posts: 270
Joined: Sat Apr 17, 2010 12:34 pm
Location: Budapest

Re: Draw?

Post by Arpad Rusz » Thu Aug 27, 2015 6:38 pm

No. Black mates in 30 moves according to the Lomonosov tablebases.

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Eelco de Groot
Posts: 4170
Joined: Sun Mar 12, 2006 1:40 am
Location: Groningen

Re: Draw?

Post by Eelco de Groot » Thu Aug 27, 2015 8:44 pm

After 3'50" it is already -6.00. So that does not look like a possible draw to me, even without tablebases installed.


[D]k6n/7R/6n1/8/3K4/8/3r3P/8 w - -

Engine: Sf20150607_036 MOD MP (512 MB)
by Tord Romstad, Marco Costalba and Joona Kiiski
.
.
.
20/41 0:06 -5.38 1.Ke3 Rd8 2.Ke4 Re8+ 3.Kf5 Rf8+
4.Ke4 Nf7 5.h4 Kb8 6.Kd4 Rd8+ 7.Ke3 Re8+
8.Kf2 Nge5 9.h5 Kb7 10.Kg3 Kc6
11.Kf4 Nd3+ 12.Kf5 Nd6+ 13.Kg4 Ne5+
14.Kf4 (19.846.911) 3222

21/41 0:07 -5.39 1.Ke3 Rd8 2.Ke4 Re8+ 3.Kf5 Rf8+
4.Kg5 Nf4 5.Re7 Nd5 6.Rd7 Nf7+ 7.Kf5 Nd8+
8.Ke5 Ne3 9.Rh7 Re8+ 10.Kd6 Nb7+
11.Kd7 Rd8+ 12.Ke7 Rd6 13.h4 Nd5+
14.Kf8 (25.246.961) 3325

22/43 0:08 -5.39 1.Ke3 Rd8 2.Ke4 Re8+ 3.Kf5 Rf8+
4.Kg5 Nf4 5.Re7 Nd5 6.Rd7 Nf7+ 7.Kf5 Nd8+
8.Ke5 Ne3 9.Rh7 Re8+ 10.Kd6 Nb7+
11.Kd7 Rd8+ 12.Ke6 Nc5+ 13.Ke5 Nc4+
14.Kf6 (26.990.426) 3285

23/50 0:14 -5.51-- 1.Ke3 Rd8 (46.281.372) 3194

23/50 0:16 -5.52 1.Ke3 Rd8 2.Ke4 Re8+ 3.Kf5 Rf8+
4.Kg5 Nf4 5.Re7 Nd5 6.Rd7 Nf7+ 7.Kf5 Nd8+
8.Ke5 Ne3 9.Rh7 Re8+ 10.Kd6 Nb7+
11.Kd7 Rd8+ 12.Ke6 Nc5+ 13.Ke5 Re8+
14.Kd4 (55.016.763) 3265

24/54 0:27 -5.64 1.Ke3 Rd8 2.Ke4 Re8+ 3.Kf5 Rf8+
4.Kg5 Nf4 5.Re7 Nd5 6.Rg7 Nf7+ 7.Kf5 Nd6+
8.Ke6 Nf5 9.Rh7 Nfe3 10.Kd6 Nf6
11.Rh3 Nfg4 12.Kc7 Ka7 13.Rh5 Ka6
14.h4 (95.023.673) 3491

25/54 0:32 -5.65 1.Ke3 Rd8 2.Ke4 Re8+ 3.Kf5 Rf8+
4.Kg5 Nf4 5.Re7 Nd5 6.Rd7 Nf7+ 7.Kf5 Nd8+
8.Ke5 Ne3 9.Rh7 Re8+ 10.Kd6 Nb7+
11.Kd7 Rd8+ 12.Ke6 Nc5+ 13.Ke5 Re8+
14.Kd4 (117.670.333) 3612

26/54 0:40 -5.66 1.Ke3 Rd8 2.Ke4 Re8+ 3.Kf5 Rf8+
4.Kg5 Nf4 5.Re7 Nd5 6.Rd7 Nf7+ 7.Kf5 Nd8+
8.Ke5 Ne3 9.Rh7 Re8+ 10.Kd6 Nb7+
11.Kd7 Rd8+ 12.Ke6 Nc5+ 13.Ke5 Re8+
14.Kd4 (149.144.933) 3706

27/55 0:56 -5.75 1.Ke3 Rd8 2.Ke4 Re8+ 3.Kf5 Rf8+
4.Kg5 Nf4 5.Re7 Nd5 6.Rg7 Nf7+ 7.Kf5 Nd6+
8.Ke6 Nf5 9.Rh7 Nfe3 10.Ke5 Re8+
11.Kd4 Nf6 12.Rf7 Nf5+ 13.Kd3 Re3+
14.Kc2 (218.102.095) 3852

28/55 1:24 -5.86 1.Ke3 Rd8 2.Ke4 Re8+ 3.Kf5 Rf8+
4.Kg5 Nf4 5.Re7 Nd5 6.Rg7 Nf7+ 7.Kf5 Nd6+
8.Ke6 Nf5 9.Rh7 Nfe3 10.Kd6 Nf6
11.Rh3 Nfg4 12.Kc7 Ka7 13.Rh5 Ka6
14.h4 (336.392.038) 3979

29/60 2:06 -5.89 1.Ke3 Rd8 2.Ke4 Re8+ 3.Kf5 Rf8+
4.Ke4 Nf7 5.Kf5 Nfe5+ 6.Ke6 Rf2
7.Kd5 Nf7 8.Rg7 Nf4+ 9.Kd4 Ne6+
10.Ke3 Rf6 11.Rg4 Kb7 12.h4 Ne5
13.Rg1 Nc4+ 14.Kd3 (508.702.116) 4031

30/60 3:00 -5.99 1.Ke3 Rd8 2.Ke4 Re8+ 3.Kf5 Rf8+
4.Kg5 Nf4 5.Re7 Nd5 6.Rg7 Nf7+ 7.Kf5 Nd6+
8.Ke6 Nf5 9.Rh7 Nfe3 10.Kd6 Nf6
11.Rh3 Nfg4 12.Kc7 Ka7 13.Rh5 Ka6
14.h4 (737.689.667) 4089

31/62 3:50 -6.01 1.Ke3 Rd8 2.Ke4 Re8+ 3.Kf5 Rf8+
4.Kg5 Nf4 5.Re7 Nd5 6.Rg7 Nf7+ 7.Kf5 Nd6+
8.Ke6 Nf5 9.Rh7 Nfe3 10.Kd6 Nf6
11.Rh3 Nfg4 12.Rh7 Kb8 13.Rh5 Nf5+
14.Ke6 (950.207.658) 4124

32/63 6:13 -6.11 1.Ke3 Rd8 2.Ke4 Re8+ 3.Kf5 Rf8+
4.Kg5 Nf4 5.Re7 Nd5 6.Rg7 Nf7+ 7.Kf5 Nd6+
8.Ke6 Nf5 9.Rh7 Nfe3 10.Kd6 Nf6
11.Rh3 Nfg4 12.Rh7 Kb8 13.Rh3 Kb7
14.Kc5 (1.564.240.329) 4192

best move: Kd4-e3 time: 6:44.900 min n/s: 4.192.077 nodes: 1.692.811.889
Debugging is twice as hard as writing the code in the first
place. Therefore, if you write the code as cleverly as possible, you
are, by definition, not smart enough to debug it.
-- Brian W. Kernighan

bob
Posts: 20642
Joined: Mon Feb 27, 2006 6:30 pm
Location: Birmingham, AL

Re: Draw?

Post by bob » Fri Aug 28, 2015 12:11 am

Jack Lad wrote:[d] k6n/7R/6n1/8/3K4/8/3r3P/8 w - - 0 1
Can white hold the draw here or not?
1. Ke3 Rd8 2. Ke4 Re8+ 3. Kf5 Rf8+ 4. Ke4 Nf7 5. Kf5 Nfe5+ 6. Ke6 Nf3 7. Rh6 Nf4+ 8. Ke7 Rf5 9. Rh7 Re5+ 10. Kd7 Rc5 11. Kd6 Rd5+ 12. Ke7 Kb7 13. Rf7 Rd4 14. h3 Kc7 15. Ke8+ Kc6 16. Ra7
[d] 4K3/R7/2k5/8/3r1n2/5n1P/8/8 b - - 4 16
In this example black can now win in 20 moves with Nxh3.
I let Crafty run for 10 minutes at 100M nodes per second. Stopped at almost -8.00. One interesting test is to remove the rooks, since this is a KNNKP type ending, and sure enough, it appears that if rooks are traded, this is a win for black because of the poor white h pawn location.

I'd suspect it is won for black based on these results...

Vinvin
Posts: 4393
Joined: Thu Mar 09, 2006 8:40 am
Full name: Vincent Lejeune

Re: Draw?

Post by Vinvin » Fri Aug 28, 2015 7:07 am

At depth 40, SF gives a <120 score, that means the position is lost for white :

FEN: k6n/7R/6n1/8/3K4/8/3r3P/8 w - - 0 1

Code: Select all

Stockfish_15081720_x64_modern&#58;
...
 22/42	00&#58;00	 5.635k	7.635k	-5,60	1.Ke3 Rd8 2.Ke4 Re8+ 3.Kf5 Rf8+ 4.Kg5 Nf4 5.Re7 Nd5 6.Rg7 Nf7+ 7.Kf5 Nd6+ 8.Ke6 Nf5 9.Rh7 Nf4+ 10.Ke5 Ng6+ 11.Ke4 Nd6+ 12.Kd5 Rd8 13.Kd4 Re8 14.Kc3 Ne5 15.h4 Ndf7 16.Kd2 Kb7 17.Ke2 Kc6 18.Ke3
 23/42	00&#58;02	 21.950k	9.594k	-5,68	1.Ke3 Rd8 2.Ke4 Re8+ 3.Kf5 Rf8+ 4.Kg5 Nf4 5.h4 Ne6+ 6.Kg4 Nf7 7.Rh5 Kb7 8.Kg3 Nd6 9.Re5 Nf5+ 10.Kg4 Nfd4 11.Kg3 Rf3+ 12.Kg4 Rf4+ 13.Kh3 Kc6 14.h5 Kd6 15.Re1 Nf5 16.Kg2
 24/42-	00&#58;03	 31.091k	9.668k	-5,74	1.Ke3 Rd8
 24/42-	00&#58;04	 42.224k	10.229k	-5,81	1.Ke3 Rd8
 24/42	00&#58;04	 51.389k	10.563k	-5,82	1.Ke3 Rd8 2.Ke4 Re8+ 3.Kf5 Rf8+ 4.Kg5 Nf4 5.Re7 Nd5 6.Rh7 Nf7+ 7.Kf5 Nh6+ 8.Ke6 Ng4 9.Kd6 Nde3 10.Kc5 Rc8+ 11.Kb6 Nc4+ 12.Ka6 Nd6 13.h4 Nf6 14.Rh6 Rc6+ 15.Ka5 Kb8 16.Rg6 Nf5
 25/42-	00&#58;05	 65.113k	10.930k	-5,89	1.Ke3 Rd8
 25/42	00&#58;07	 78.866k	11.182k	-5,90	1.Ke3 Rd8 2.Ke4 Re8+ 3.Kf5 Rf8+ 4.Kg5 Nf4 5.h4 Ne6+ 6.Kg4 Nf7 7.Rh5 Kb7 8.Ra5 Kb6 9.Rh5 Ra8 10.Rh7 Nd6 11.Rh6 Ra4+ 12.Kh5 Nf4+ 13.Kg5 Kc5 14.Rh7 Kd5 15.Kf6 Ra8 16.h5 Ne4+ 17.Kg7 Ke5
 26/42-	00&#58;08	 96.243k	11.443k	-5,96	1.Ke3 Rd8
 26/42-	00&#58;10	 118.427k	11.675k	-6,03	1.Ke3 Rd8
 26/43+	00&#58;11	 133.302k	11.771k	-5,96	1.Ke3
 26/43-	00&#58;12	 143.008k	11.853k	-6,04	1.Ke3 Rd8
 26/48	00&#58;13	 160.481k	11.959k	-6,06	1.Ke3 Rd8 2.Ke4 Re8+ 3.Kf5 Rf8+ 4.Kg5 Nf4 5.h4 Ne6+ 6.Kg4 Nf7 7.Rh5 Kb7 8.Ra5 Kb6 9.Rh5 Ra8 10.Rh7 Nd6 11.Rh6 Ra4+ 12.Kh3 Nf4+ 13.Kg3 Kc5 14.Rh7 Nd3 15.Rh5+ Kd4 16.Rh8 Ke4 17.Rb8 Ra1 18.h5 Nf5+ 19.Kg4 Rg1+ 20.Kh3
 27/48-	00&#58;14	 179.548k	12.035k	-6,12	1.Ke3 Rd8
 27/48	00&#58;16	 206.017k	12.129k	-6,15	1.Ke3 Rd8 2.Ke4 Re8+ 3.Kf5 Rf8+ 4.Ke6 Rf2 5.Rh6 Nf8+ 6.Kd5 Nf7 7.Rh5 Ng6 8.Kc5 Kb7 9.Rh3 Rd2 10.Rh7 Nge5 11.Rh5 Rd8 12.Rh7 Nd3+ 13.Kb5 Rd7 14.Ka4 Nde5 15.Rh3 Kc6 16.Rc3+ Kd5 17.h4
 28/48-	00&#58;19	 243.701k	12.250k	-6,21	1.Ke3 Rd8
 28/50	00&#58;23	 287.875k	12.377k	-6,27	1.Ke3 Rd8 2.Ke4 Re8+ 3.Kf5 Rf8+ 4.Kg5 Nf4 5.Re7 Nd5 6.Rg7 Nf7+ 7.Kf5 Ne3+ 8.Ke6 Nd6 9.Rc7 Ndf5 10.Rh7 Re8+ 11.Kf6 Nd6 12.Kg6 Rg8+ 13.Kf6 Ng4+ 14.Ke7 Nf5+ 15.Ke6 Nfh6 16.h4 Rg6+ 17.Ke7 Nf5+ 18.Kd8 Ne5 19.Rh5 Rf6 20.Kc8 Ka7 21.Rh7+ Kb6
 29/50-	00&#58;26	 334.086k	12.517k	-6,33	1.Ke3 Rd8
 29/50-	00&#58;30	 384.040k	12.630k	-6,39	1.Ke3 Rd8
 29/54-	00&#58;39	 507.816k	12.783k	-6,63	1.Ke3 Rd8
 29/54+	00&#58;40	 519.046k	12.778k	-6,52	1.Ke3
 29/54	00&#58;40	 520.682k	12.780k	-6,63	1.Ke3 Rd8 2.Ke4 Re8+ 3.Kf5 Rf8+ 4.Kg5 Nf4 5.Rh4 Ne6+ 6.Kg4 Nf7 7.Rh5 Nd6 8.Ra5+ Kb7 9.Ra4 Rg8+ 10.Kf3 Rh8 11.Ra2 Rh4 12.Kg2 Nf5 13.Rb2+ Kc6 14.Rb8 Nf4+ 15.Kg1 Nd5 16.Rc8+ Kd7 17.Rc5 Nde3 18.Ra5 Kc6 19.Ra6+ Kb5 20.Ra8 Rf4 21.Ra1 Rh4 22.Rc1 Rg4+ 23.Kh1
 30/54+	00&#58;40	 523.120k	12.780k	-6,56	1.Ke3
 30/54-	00&#58;41	 524.965k	12.774k	-6,63	1.Ke3 Rd8
 30/55-	00&#58;44	 576.085k	12.895k	-6,72	1.Ke3 Rd8
 30/55	00&#58;45	 588.821k	12.901k	-6,72	1.Ke3 Rd8 2.Ke4 Re8+ 3.Kd4 Ne5 4.Rh5 Nhf7 5.Kc5 Kb7 6.Kb5 Rd8 7.Kc5 Rb8 8.Rh7 Re8 9.Kb5 Rc8 10.Kb4 Kc6 11.h3 Rd8 12.Kc3 Kd5 13.Kd2 Nd6 14.Ke2 Rf8 15.Ra7 Ne4 16.Ra5+ Kd4 17.Ra4+ Nc4 18.Ra7 Rf2+ 19.Ke1
 31/55-	00&#58;48	 625.624k	12.945k	-6,78	1.Ke3 Rd8
 31/55-	00&#58;50	 662.938k	13.013k	-6,84	1.Ke3 Rd8
 31/55	00&#58;53	 695.136k	13.072k	-6,86	1.Ke3 Rd8 2.Ke4 Re8+ 3.Kd4 Ne5 4.Rh5 Nhf7 5.Kc5 Kb7 6.Rh7 Kc7 7.h3 Rd8 8.Rh5 Kb7 9.Rh7 Rb8 10.Kd5 Re8 11.Rh5 Rd8+ 12.Kc5 Rd3 13.h4 Rd7 14.Kb5 Rd5+ 15.Ka4 Kc6 16.Rh7 Rd3 17.Kb4 Rf3 18.Ka5 Rf4
 32/55-	00&#58;55	 725.862k	13.133k	-6,92	1.Ke3 Rd8
 32/55	00&#58;55	 729.875k	13.135k	-6,92	1.Ke3 Rd8 2.Ke4 Re8+ 3.Kd4 Ne5 4.Rh5 Nhf7 5.Kc5 Kb7 6.Rh7 Kc7 7.Rh5 Rd8 8.Rh7 Rd3 9.Kb5 Rd5+ 10.Ka4 Kc6 11.Kb3 Rd8 12.h3 Rb8+ 13.Kc2 Re8 14.h4 Kd5 15.h5 Nd6 16.Kc1 Rc8+ 17.Kb2 Rb8+ 18.Kc2 Kd4 19.h6 Ndc4 20.Kc1 Ne3
 33/55-	00&#58;58	 767.793k	13.173k	-6,98	1.Ke3 Rd8
 33/55	00&#58;58	 772.380k	13.173k	-6,98	1.Ke3 Rd8 2.Ke4 Re8+ 3.Kd4 Ne5 4.Rh5 Nhf7 5.Kc5 Kb7 6.Rh7 Kc7 7.Rh5 Rd8 8.Rh7 Rd3 9.Kb5 Rd5+ 10.Ka4 Kc6 11.Kb3 Rd8 12.h3 Rb8+ 13.Kc2 Kd5 14.h4 Nd6 15.Kc1 Rc8+ 16.Kb2 Rf8 17.h5 Rb8+ 18.Kc1 Rc8+ 19.Kb2 Rd8 20.Rh6 Ndf7 21.Rh7
 34/55	00&#58;59	 777.363k	13.175k	-6,98	1.Ke3 Rd8 2.Ke4 Re8+ 3.Kd4 Ne5 4.Rh5 Nhf7 5.Kc5 Kb7 6.Rh7 Kc7 7.Rh5 Rd8 8.Rh7 Rd3 9.Kb5 Rd5+ 10.Ka4 Kc6 11.Kb3 Rd8 12.h3 Rb8+ 13.Kc2 Kd5 14.h4 Nd6 15.Kc1 Rc8+ 16.Kb2 Rf8 17.h5 Rb8+ 18.Kc1 Rc8+ 19.Kb2 Rd8 20.Rh6 Ndf7 21.Rh7 Rc8
 35/55-	01&#58;03	 843.997k	13.258k	-7,05	1.Ke3 Rd8
 35/55-	01&#58;06	 890.602k	13.336k	-7,11	1.Ke3 Rd8
 35/55-	01&#58;40	 1.421.247k	14.112k	-14,02	1.Ke3 Rd8
 35/55	01&#58;41	 1.432.280k	14.123k	-14,02	1.Ke3 Rd8 2.Ke4 Re8+ 3.Kd4 Ne5 4.Rh3 Kb7 5.Kd5 Nhf7 6.Rh7 Kb6 7.h4 Kb7 8.Kc5 Rd8 9.Kb4 Kc6 10.Kc3 Re8 11.h5 Kd5 12.Kc2 Rb8 13.Kc1 Rc8+ 14.Kb1 Rd8 15.Kc2 Kc6 16.Kc1 Rg8 17.Kd2 Nf3+ 18.Ke3 Re8+ 19.Kf2 N3g5 20.Rg7 Rh8 21.Rg6+ Kd5 22.h6 Ne6
 36/55-	01&#58;43	 1.470.023k	14.150k	-14,08	1.Ke3 Rd8
 36/57-	01&#58;45	 1.505.972k	14.245k	-14,14	1.Ke3 Rd8
 36/57+	01&#58;46	 1.527.885k	14.312k	-14,08	1.Ke4
 36/57-	01&#58;47	 1.539.925k	14.347k	-14,16	1.Ke4 Re2+
 36/57-	01&#58;56	 1.722.465k	14.812k	-16,90	1.Ke4 Re2+
 36/63+	01&#58;56	 1.731.296k	14.825k	-16,10	1.Ke4
 36/63-	01&#58;58	 1.756.896k	14.880k	-17,29	1.Ke4 Re2+
 36/63-	02&#58;04	 1.854.398k	14.914k	-26,14	1.Ke4 Re2+
 36/63+	02&#58;04	 1.858.042k	14.914k	-21,61	1.Ke4
 36/63-	02&#58;07	 1.901.442k	14.961k	-28,12	1.Ke4 Re2+
 36/63-	02&#58;09	 1.946.331k	14.976k	-46,02	1.Ke4 Re2+
 36/63+	02&#58;10	 1.951.410k	14.977k	-29,67	1.Ke4
 36/63	02&#58;10	 1.955.298k	14.975k	-46,02	1.Ke4 Re2+ 2.Kf3 Re8 3.Rh3 Nf7 4.Kg4 Kb7 5.Rh7 Nge5+ 6.Kg3 Rg8+ 7.Kf4 Kc6 8.Rh5 Re8 9.Ke4 Rd8 10.Ke3 Kd5 11.Kd2 Nd6 12.Kc2 Rc8+ 13.Kb2 Rf8 14.Kc3 Rb8 15.h3 Ne4+ 16.Kc2 Rf8 17.Rh7 Rf2+ 18.Kb3 Rf3+ 19.Kc2 Kd4 20.Rh4 Rc3+ 21.Kb2 Nc4+ 22.Kb1 Kc5 23.Rh5+ Kb4 24.Ka2
 37/63	02&#58;10	 1.955.776k	14.975k	-46,02	1.Ke4 Re2+ 2.Kf3 Re8 3.Rh3 Nf7 4.Kg4 Kb7 5.Rh7 Nge5+ 6.Kg3 Rg8+ 7.Kf4 Kc6 8.Rh5 Re8 9.Ke4 Rd8 10.Ke3 Kd5 11.Kd2 Nd6 12.Kc2 Rc8+ 13.Kb2 Rf8 14.Kc3 Rb8 15.h3 Ne4+ 16.Kc2 Rd8 17.Rh7 Rc8+ 18.Kb1 Rb8+ 19.Kc1 Rf8 20.Rg7 Rf1+ 21.Kb2 Rf2+ 22.Ka1 Nc3 23.Ra7 Nc4
 38/63	02&#58;10	 1.956.999k	14.975k	-46,02	1.Ke4 Re2+ 2.Kf3 Re8 3.Rh3 Nf7 4.Kg4 Kb7 5.Rh7 Nge5+ 6.Kg3 Rg8+ 7.Kf4 Kc6 8.Rh5 Re8 9.Ke4 Rd8 10.Ke3 Kd5 11.Kd2 Nd6 12.Kc2 Rc8+ 13.Kb2 Rf8 14.Ka2 Ne4 15.Rh6 Ra8+ 16.Kb2 Rd8 17.h4 Nd3+ 18.Kc2 Kd4 19.Kd1 Rb8 20.Ke2 Rb2+ 21.Kf1 Rf2+ 22.Kg1 Ne5 23.Rd6+ Kc5
 39/63	02&#58;10	 1.958.664k	14.974k	-46,02	1.Ke4 Re2+ 2.Kf3 Re8 3.Rh3 Nf7 4.Kg4 Kb7 5.Rh7 Nge5+ 6.Kg3 Rg8+ 7.Kf4 Kc6 8.Rh5 Re8 9.Ke4 Rd8 10.Ke3 Kd5 11.Kd2 Nd6 12.Kc2 Rc8+ 13.Kb2 Rf8 14.Kb3 Rb8+ 15.Kc2 Ra8 16.Rh6 Rf8 17.h3 Re8 18.Kb1 Rb8+ 19.Ka1 Ne4 20.Rh4 Ra8+ 21.Kb1 Kd4 22.Rh7 Rf8 23.Rc7 Rf1+ 24.Ka2
 40/63-	02&#58;13	 2.004.492k	15.018k	-46,08	1.Ke4 Re2+
 40/63-	02&#58;16	 2.054.883k	15.065k	-46,15	1.Ke4 Re2+
 40/63-	02&#58;18	 2.100.523k	15.116k	-46,24	1.Ke4 Re2+
 40/63+	02&#58;20	 2.120.259k	15.131k	-46,15	1.Ke4
 40/63-	02&#58;21	 2.147.363k	15.189k	-46,27	1.Ke4 Re2+
 40/63-	02&#58;25	 2.229.159k	15.332k	-47,05	1.Ke4 Re2+
 40/63+	02&#58;25	 2.231.585k	15.334k	-46,64	1.Ke4
 40/63-	02&#58;27	 2.268.093k	15.405k	-47,22	1.Ke4 Re2+
 40/63-	02&#58;36	 2.405.483k	15.414k	-54,70	1.Ke4 Re2+
 40/63+	02&#58;36	 2.410.829k	15.412k	-51,65	1.Ke4
 40/63-	02&#58;38	 2.453.033k	15.438k	-56,02	1.Ke4 Re2+
 40/63-	02&#58;43	 2.497.961k	15.300k	-67,95	1.Ke4 Re2+
 40/63+	02&#58;43	 2.500.025k	15.300k	-54,26	1.Ke4
 40/63-	02&#58;48	 2.542.904k	15.134k	-72,37	1.Ke4 Re2+
 40/63-	02&#58;51	 2.593.487k	15.148k	-112,65	1.Ke4 Re2+
 40/63+	02&#58;54	 2.642.600k	15.168k	-77,03	1.Ke4
 40/63-	02&#58;54	 2.642.738k	15.168k	-102,65	1.Ke4 Re2+
 40/63	03&#58;02	 2.764.254k	15.178k	-123,30	1.Ke4 Re2+ 2.Kf5 Ne7+ 3.Kg5 Nhg6 4.Kf6 Rf2+ 5.Kg5 Rf5+ 6.Kh6 Rf4 7.Kg5 Rf2 8.h3 Rf8 9.h4 Rf5+ 10.Kh6 Re5 11.Kg7 Nf4 12.Kf6 Nc6 13.Kf7 Kb7 14.Kf8+ Kc8 15.Kf7 Kd8 16.Rh8+ Kc7 17.Rh7 Kd7 18.Kf6+ Kd6 19.Rh8 Nh5+ 20.Kf7 Kd7 21.Kg6 Ne7+ 22.Kh6 Nf4 23.Kg7 Neg6 24.Rh6 Re7+ 25.Kf6 Re6+ 26.Kg7 Ne5
 41/63	03&#58;05	 2.829.030k	15.233k	-123,34	1.Ke4 Re2+ 2.Kd4 Re8 3.Rh6 Ne5 4.Rh3 Nhf7 5.Rh5 Ng6 6.Rh3 Rd8+ 7.Kc5 Nf4 8.Rh7 Ne5 9.Kb6 Rb8+ 10.Kc5 Neg6 11.h4 Rf8 12.Rh6 Ne7 13.Kb6 Nf5 14.Rh7 Nd5+ 15.Ka6 Nf6 16.Ra7+ Kb8 17.Rb7+ Kc8 18.Rb4 Nd5 19.Rc4+ Kd7 20.Rg4 Ra8+ 21.Kb5 Nd6+ 22.Kc5 Ra5+ 23.Kd4 Ra4+ 24.Ke5 Rxg4
 42/63	03&#58;06	 2.839.249k	15.237k	-123,34	1.Ke4 Re2+ 2.Kd4 Re8 3.Rh6 Ne5 4.Rh3 Nhf7 5.Rh5 Ng6 6.Rh3 Rd8+ 7.Kc5 Nf4 8.Rh7 Ne5 9.Kb6 Rb8+ 10.Kc5 Neg6 11.h4 Rf8 12.Rh6 Ne7 13.Kc4 Nf5 14.Rh7 Rc8+ 15.Kb5 Nd4+ 16.Ka6 Rc6+ 17.Ka5 Rc5+ 18.Kb6 Rh5 19.Ra7+ Kb8 20.Rb7+ Kc8 21.Rc7+ Kd8 22.Rc4 Nd5+ 23.Kc5 Ne3+ 24.Kb6 Nxc4+
 43/63	03&#58;18	 3.025.265k	15.211k	-123,36	1.Ke4 Re2+ 2.Kf5 Ne7+ 3.Kg5 Nhg6 4.Kf6 Rf2+ 5.Kg5 Rf1 6.h3 Rf8 7.h4 Rf5+ 8.Kh6 Re5 9.Kg7 Nf4 10.Kf6 Nc6 11.Rh8+ Kb7 12.Rh7+ Kc8 13.Rh8+ Kd7 14.Rh7+ Kd6 15.Rh8 Nh5+ 16.Kf7 Rf5+ 17.Kg6 Ne7+ 18.Kh6 Nf4 19.Kg7 Nfg6 20.Rd8+ Ke6 21.Rd4 Rf7+ 22.Kh6 Nxh4
 44/63	03&#58;22	 3.081.819k	15.213k	-123,36	1.Ke4 Re2+ 2.Kf5 Ne7+ 3.Kg5 Nhg6 4.Kf6 Rf2+ 5.Kg5 Rf1 6.h3 Rf8 7.h4 Rf5+ 8.Kh6 Re5 9.Kg7 Nf4 10.Kf6 Nc6 11.Rh8+ Kb7 12.Rh7+ Kc8 13.Rh8+ Kd7 14.Rh7+ Kd6 15.Rh8 Nh5+ 16.Kf7 Kd7 17.Kg6 Ne7+ 18.Kh6 Ke6 19.Rh7 Nf6 20.Rh8 Rh5+ 21.Kg7 Rxh8
 45/63	03&#58;23	 3.095.357k	15.204k	-123,36	1.Ke4 Re2+ 2.Kf5 Ne7+ 3.Kg5 Nhg6 4.Kf6 Rf2+ 5.Kg5 Rf1 6.h3 Rf8 7.h4 Rf5+ 8.Kh6 Re5 9.Kg7 Nf4 10.Kf6 Nc6 11.Rh8+ Kb7 12.Rh7+ Kc8 13.Rh8+ Kd7 14.Rh7+ Kd6 15.Rh8 Nh5+ 16.Kf7 Kd7 17.Kg6 Ne7+ 18.Kh6 Ke6 19.Rh7 Nf6 20.Rh8 Rh5+ 21.Kg7 Rxh8
 46/63	03&#58;43	 3.384.964k	15.144k	-123,39	1.Ke4 Rf2 2.Ke3 Rf8 3.Rh5 Re8+ 4.Kf2 Ne5 5.Rh3 Rf8+ 6.Kg1 Nf3+ 7.Kg2 Ng6 8.Rh7 Nfe5 9.Kg1 Nh4 10.h3 Nef3+ 11.Kh1 Nf5 12.Rd7 Re8 13.Kg2 N3h4+ 14.Kf2 Re3 15.Rd8+ Kb7 16.Rd7+ Kb6 17.Rd5 Rxh3
 47/63	03&#58;44	 3.402.412k	15.134k	-123,39	1.Ke4 Rf2 2.Ke3 Rf8 3.Rh5 Re8+ 4.Kf2 Ne5 5.Rh3 Rf8+ 6.Kg1 Nf3+ 7.Kg2 Ng6 8.Rh7 Nfe5 9.Kg1 Nh4 10.h3 Nef3+ 11.Kh1 Nf5 12.Rd7 Re8 13.Kg2 N3h4+ 14.Kf2 Re3 15.Rd8+ Kb7 16.Rd7+ Kb6 17.Rd5 Rxh3
 48/63	03&#58;47	 3.441.721k	15.132k	-123,39	1.Ke4 Rf2 2.Ke3 Rf8 3.Rh5 Re8+ 4.Kf2 Ne5 5.Rh3 Rf8+ 6.Kg1 Nf3+ 7.Kg2 Ng6 8.Rh7 Nfe5 9.Kg1 Nh4 10.h3 Nef3+ 11.Kh1 Nf5 12.Rd7 Re8 13.Kg2 N3h4+ 14.Kf2 Re3 15.Rd8+ Kb7 16.Rd7+ Kb6 17.Rd5 Rxh3
 49/63	03&#58;49	 3.472.860k	15.124k	-123,39	1.Ke4 Rf2 2.Ke3 Rf8 3.Rh5 Re8+ 4.Kf2 Ne5 5.Rh3 Rf8+ 6.Kg1 Nf3+ 7.Kg2 Ng6 8.Rh7 Nfe5 9.Kg1 Nh4 10.h3 Nef3+ 11.Kh1 Nf5 12.Rd7 Re8 13.Kg2 N3h4+ 14.Kf2 Re3 15.Rd8+ Kb7 16.Rd7+ Kb6 17.Rd5 Rxh3
 50/63	03&#58;53	 3.526.977k	15.113k	-123,39	1.Ke4 Rf2 2.Ke3 Rf8 3.Rh5 Re8+ 4.Kf2 Ne5 5.Rh3 Rf8+ 6.Kg1 Nf3+ 7.Kg2 Ng6 8.Rh7 Nfe5 9.Kg1 Nh4 10.h3 Nef3+ 11.Kh1 Nf5 12.Rd7 Re8 13.Kg2 N3h4+ 14.Kf2 Re3 15.Rd8+ Kb7 16.Rd7+ Kb6 17.Rd5 Rxh3
 51/63	03&#58;57	 3.581.324k	15.092k	-123,39	1.Ke4 Rf2 2.Ke3 Rf8 3.Rh5 Re8+ 4.Kf2 Ne5 5.Rh3 Rf8+ 6.Kg1 Nf3+ 7.Kg2 Ng6 8.Rh7 Nfe5 9.Kg1 Nh4 10.h3 Nef3+ 11.Kh1 Nf5 12.Rd7 Re8 13.Kg2 N3h4+ 14.Kf2 Re3 15.Rd8+ Kb7 16.Rd7+ Kb6 17.Rd5 Rxh3
 52/63	04&#58;03	 3.672.564k	15.087k	-123,39	1.Ke4 Rf2 2.Ke3 Rf8 3.Rh5 Re8+ 4.Kf2 Ne5 5.Rh3 Rf8+ 6.Kg1 Nf3+ 7.Kg2 Ng6 8.Rh7 Nfe5 9.Kg1 Nh4 10.h3 Nef3+ 11.Kh1 Nf5 12.Rd7 Re8 13.Kg2 N3h4+ 14.Kf2 Re3 15.Rd8+ Kb7 16.Rd7+ Kb6 17.Rd5 Rxh3

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Jack Lad
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Re: Draw?

Post by Jack Lad » Fri Aug 28, 2015 4:19 pm

Thanks Arpad and all who have responded. 8-)

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Jack Lad
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Re: Draw?

Post by Jack Lad » Fri Aug 28, 2015 5:04 pm

bob wrote:One interesting test is to remove the rooks, since this is a KNNKP type ending, and sure enough, it appears that if rooks are traded, this is a win for black because of the poor white h pawn location.
[d] 1n1qk1n1/8/8/8/8/8/7P/3QK3 w - - 0 1
In this position if white simply trades queens then the position is lost. Better to play Qe2+ instead but can white hold on?

Andre
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Re: Draw?

Post by Andre » Fri Aug 28, 2015 5:39 pm

if Qe2+ then ...Qe7 is still a Queen trade

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Jack Lad
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Re: Draw?

Post by Jack Lad » Fri Aug 28, 2015 5:58 pm

Andre wrote:if Qe2+ then ...Qe7 is still a Queen trade
Of course and then black can win in 87 moves! :oops:
Perhaps white should try Qh5+ instead. :roll:
[d] 1n1qk1n1/8/8/7Q/8/8/7P/4K3 b - - 1 1

Arpad Rusz
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Re: Draw?

Post by Arpad Rusz » Fri Aug 28, 2015 6:13 pm

[d] 1n1qk1n1/8/8/8/8/8/7P/3QK3 w - - 0 1

Black wins:

1 Qd1xd8 -94
2 Qd1e2 -31
3 Qd1h5 -31
4 Qd1c2 -24
5 Qd1b3 -24

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