Moderators: hgm, Rebel, chrisw
Code: Select all
D=37/51, 2 880 MN, Stockfish_16072409
=0,00 1.e4 Ne7 2.Nc3 Nc6 3.Bb5 Bd7 4.Bxc6 Bxc6 5.Nf3 b5 6.d3 Qf6 7.0-0 0-0 8.a3 a5 9.Be3 b4 10.Ne2 Bd7 11.Bd4 Qc6 12.Be3 Qf6
=0,00 1.Nc3 Ne7 2.e4 Nc6 3.Bb5 Bd7 4.Bxc6 Bxc6 5.Nf3 b5 6.d3 Qf6 7.0-0 0-0 8.a3 a5 9.Be3 b4 10.Ne2 Bd7 11.Bd4 Qc6 12.Be3 Qf6
You did Not evaluated the position yourself, in which most humans select or pick White to win due to the three pawns missing in front of Black's King ==>yurikvelo wrote:Code: Select all
D=37/51, 2 880 MN, Stockfish_16072409 =0,00 1.e4 Ne7 2.Nc3 Nc6 3.Bb5 Bd7 4.Bxc6 Bxc6 5.Nf3 b5 6.d3 Qf6 7.0-0 0-0 8.a3 a5 9.Be3 b4 10.Ne2 Bd7 11.Bd4 Qc6 12.Be3 Qf6 =0,00 1.Nc3 Ne7 2.e4 Nc6 3.Bb5 Bd7 4.Bxc6 Bxc6 5.Nf3 b5 6.d3 Qf6 7.0-0 0-0 8.a3 a5 9.Be3 b4 10.Ne2 Bd7 11.Bd4 Qc6 12.Be3 Qf6
Arena users: UNCHECK save mainline!!!George wrote:
You did Not evaluated the position yourself, in which most humans select or pick White to win due to the three pawns missing in front of Black's King ==>
Anyway here is the first game Autoplayed by Stockfish 7 which is very instructive for us humans to see unfold ==>
[Event "Computer chess game"]
[Site "HP"]
[Date "2016.07.28"]
[Round "?"]
[White "Stockfish 7 x64"]
[Black "Stockfish 7 x64"]
[Result "1/2-1/2"]
[BlackElo "2900"]
[Time "23:14:56"]
[WhiteElo "2900"]
[TimeControl "7200"]
[SetUp "1"]
[FEN "r1bqk1nr/ppp3pp/8/8/8/8/PPPPPPPP/RNB1KBNR w KQkq - 0 1"]
[Termination "normal"]
[PlyCount "55"]
[WhiteType "program"]
[BlackType "program"]
Transformed it to a pgn file...George wrote:Without letting your Komodo 9 or Stockfish autoplay this position, by simply looking at it what side do you think has a better chance of winning, and what do you say about the value of the Queen after you find out ?
2bqkbnr/ppp1p1pp/8/8/8/8/PPPPPPPP/RNB1KBNR w KQk - 0 1 [D]
Stockfish 7 x64:
Stockfish 7 x64
Code: Select all
Hash 256MB 1 Thread Syzygy 5men Ponder off
20 games 40/75 => +3 -1 =16
20 games 40/90 => +0 -4 =16
14 games 40/105 => +0 -3 =11
StockfishASM_1707-64
Stockfish_16071607-64What is this 40/75, 40/90, 40/105 thing?Guenther wrote:Transformed it to a pgn file...George wrote:Without letting your Komodo 9 or Stockfish autoplay this position, by simply looking at it what side do you think has a better chance of winning, and what do you say about the value of the Queen after you find out ?
2bqkbnr/ppp1p1pp/8/8/8/8/PPPPPPPP/RNB1KBNR w KQk - 0 1 [D]
Stockfish 7 x64:
Stockfish 7 x64
[Event "?"]
[Site "?"]
[Date "2016.07.28"]
[Round "?"]
[White "?"]
[Black "?"]
[Result "*"]
[ECO "A06"]
[PlyCount "28"]
[EventDate "2016.07.28"]
[SourceDate "2016.07.28"]
1. Nf3 d5 2. Nd4 f5 3. Nxf5 Nf6 4. Ne3 Ne4 5. Nxd5 Nc3 6. Nb6 Nxd1 7. Nxa8
Ne3 8. Nb6 Nd5 9. Nd7 Ne3 10. Nxb8 Nc4 11. Nc6 Ne3 12. Nd4 Ng4 13. Nf3 Nf6
14. Ng1 Ng8 *
I would have liked to play 120 games as a start with SF_ASM vs. SF at
increasing by 15s tcs, but I needed my computer already after 54 games.
(of course no LTC there are more important things... and AFAIK there are
no known start positions which dramatically change the stats at LTC)
For what it's worth, after that 54 games the count was:
+3 -8 =43 from Whites' POV.
The last 2 games as exampleCode: Select all
Hash 256MB 1 Thread Syzygy 5men Ponder off 20 games 40/75 => +3 -1 =16 20 games 40/90 => +0 -4 =16 14 games 40/105 => +0 -3 =11 StockfishASM_1707-64 Stockfish_16071607-64
[Event "Q-RN2P"]
[Site "CAPPUCCINO"]
[Date "2016.07.28"]
[Round "13"]
[White "StockfishASM_1707-64"]
[Black "Stockfish_16071607-64"]
[Result "0-1"]
[TimeControl "40/105"]
[Number "13"]
[Annotator "15. +0.15 15... -0.22"]
1. Nf3 d5 2. Nd4 f5 3. Nxf5 Nf6 4. Ne3 Ne4 5. Nxd5 Nc3 6. Nb6 Nxd1 7. Nxa8
Ne3 8. Nb6 Nd5 9. Nd7 Ne3 10. Nxb8 Nc4 11. Nc6 Ne3 12. Nd4 Ng4 13. Nf3 Nf6
14. Ng1 Ng8 15. Nc3 {+0.15/18 5} Nf6 {-0.22/19 6} 16. d3 {+0.26/19 3} e5
{-0.20/19 2.5} 17. Nf3 {+0.05/19 7} Bc5 {-0.13/18 0.8} 18. e3
{+0.29/19 1.8} Qe7 {-0.13/20 7} 19. Bd2 {+0.25/19 4} O-O {-0.07/19 2.5} 20.
Be2 {+0.19/20 11} e4 {-0.01/17 4} 21. Ng5 {+0.13/20 4} exd3 {-0.05/19 6}
22. cxd3 {+0.13/18 2.8} c6 {-0.08/18 4} 23. Rc1 {+0.21/18 5} Bd6
{-0.12/18 5} 24. h3 {+0.08/18 4} Bc7 {-0.10/19 11} 25. a3 {+0.00/18 9} h6
{-0.12/19 8} 26. Nf3 {+0.00/22 4} g5 {-0.16/18 3} 27. Na4 {+0.19/17 4} Bd6
{-0.08/16 1.1} 28. b4 {+0.17/16 3} Bd7 {-0.11/18 15} 29. Nc5 {+0.08/17 4}
Bc8 {-0.17/18 2.2} 30. Nd4 {+0.00/17 4} Nd5 {+0.00/15 1.5} 31. Ndb3
{+0.11/17 3} Bb8 {+0.00/18 8} 32. Na5 {+0.03/20 11} Qf7 {-0.06/18 2.0} 33.
Bf3 {+0.00/17 2.0} h5 {+0.00/18 6} 34. Rc2 {+0.04/18 2.1} Re8 {-0.13/17 4}
35. Be2 {+0.28/17 2.2} Re7 {-0.19/16 2.7} 36. Ne4 {+0.49/16 1.6} Qg6
{-0.42/14 1.0} 37. Rc4 {+0.49/16 1.7} Be6 {-0.31/14 0.5} 38. g4
{+0.24/18 3} h4 {-0.36/14 0.6} 39. Rc2 {+0.08/17 1.7} Bc8 {-0.31/12 0.5}
40. Bf3 {+0.44/15 0.4} Nf6 {-0.06/12 0.8} 41. Rc4 {+0.00/18 9} Be6
{+0.00/18 6} 42. Rc5 {+0.00/21 7} Bd5 {+0.14/20 5} 43. Nxf6+ {-0.40/20 9}
Qxf6 {+0.19/18 0.6} 44. Bxd5+ {-0.19/19 1.9} cxd5 {+0.22/22 8} 45. Rf1
{-0.31/21 4} Qe6 {+0.17/21 1.2} 46. Rc1 {-0.40/23 14} Be5 {+0.39/20 3} 47.
a4 {-0.48/22 9} Bb2 {+0.52/19 3} 48. Rc2 {-0.42/21 5} Bg7 {+0.65/19 2.2}
49. Ke2 {-0.81/21 8} Qd6 {+0.78/17 0.5} 50. Rcc1 {-1.01/21 5} Qh2
{+0.79/20 3} 51. Rh1 {-1.01/21 1.4} Qe5 {+0.77/18 1.1} 52. Nb3
{-1.05/20 2.3} Qb2 {+0.79/20 2.4} 53. Na1 {-1.05/20 1.9} Rf7 {+1.02/18 0.6}
54. Nc2 {-1.05/20 4} Qa2 {+0.94/19 5} 55. b5 {-0.86/18 1.7} b6 {+0.96/21 5}
56. Rhf1 {-0.76/16 0.5} Qxa4 {+1.10/20 1.5} 57. Ne1 {-0.95/18 1.5} Qxb5
{+1.13/19 0.6} 58. f4 {-1.05/18 2.0} d4 {+1.32/19 2.9} 59. e4
{-1.05/16 1.3} Re7 {+1.39/15 0.4} 60. Kf2 {-1.28/18 3} gxf4 {+1.48/18 3}
61. Rc8+ {-1.51/17 2.3} Kh7 {+1.76/17 3} 62. Kg1 {-1.39/16 0.5} Be5
{+1.76/19 8} 63. Bxf4 {-1.48/16 1.6} Rf7 {+2.70/20 1.2} 64. Bd2
{-2.79/17 0.9} Qb3 {+3.07/20 1.7} 65. Kg2 {-2.98/19 1.2} Rxf1
{+3.97/22 1.8} 66. Kxf1 {-3.42/20 0.8} Qd1 {+4.02/21 0.4} 67. Bg5
{-3.98/21 1.4} Bg3 {+4.22/22 2.5} 68. Rc1 {-3.81/20 0.5} Qb3 {+4.29/20 0.4}
69. Ke2 {-4.30/19 0.8} Bxe1 {+4.44/21 1.3} 70. Rxe1 {-4.45/19 0.9} Qc2+
{+4.41/19 0.7} 71. Bd2 {-4.50/18 0.4} Qc7 {+4.76/20 2.1} 72. Kd1
{-4.57/19 1.1} Qg3 {+4.85/18 0.7} 73. Kc2 {-4.73/16 0.3} Qxh3
{+5.12/19 2.1} 74. e5 {-4.42/15 0.1} Kg8 {+5.29/18 1.3} 75. e6
{-4.96/15 0.5} Kf8 {+5.58/18 1.6} 76. Bb4+ {-5.09/14 0.3} Ke8
{+5.86/21 1.7} 77. Bd6 {-4.92/14 0.2} Qg2+ {+7.03/20 4} 78. Kd1
{-5.04/14 0.1} Qxg4+ {+6.81/19 0.6} 79. Re2 {-4.92/13 0.1} h3 {+7.66/22 4}
80. Kd2 {-5.63/13 0.1} Qg5+ {+7.82/21 1.6} 81. Ke1 {-7.84/21 5} Qa5+
{+8.12/21 2.7} 82. Kf2 {-9.32/24 13} Qd5 {+8.22/21 0.8} 83. Bc7
{-9.70/24 6} Qg2+ {+9.05/23 2.6} 84. Ke1 {-9.70/1} Qh1+ {+9.13/23 1.0} 85.
Kd2 {-10.89/23 4} Qc6 {+12.22/23 8} 86. Bb8 {-12.78/24 5} Qc3+
{+13.15/19 1.3} 87. Kd1 {-12.78/1} Qxd3+ {+13.97/21 4} 88. Rd2
{-15.90/24 9}
{Xboard adjudication} 0-1
[Event "Q-RN2P"]
[Site "CAPPUCCINO"]
[Date "2016.07.28"]
[Round "14"]
[White "Stockfish_16071607-64"]
[Black "StockfishASM_1707-64"]
[Result "1/2-1/2"]
[TimeControl "40/105"]
[Number "14"]
[Annotator "15. +0.32 15... -0.25"]
1. Nf3 d5 2. Nd4 f5 3. Nxf5 Nf6 4. Ne3 Ne4 5. Nxd5 Nc3 6. Nb6 Nxd1 7. Nxa8
Ne3 8. Nb6 Nd5 9. Nd7 Ne3 10. Nxb8 Nc4 11. Nc6 Ne3 12. Nd4 Ng4 13. Nf3 Nf6
14. Ng1 Ng8 15. Nc3 {+0.32/20 12} e5 {-0.25/20 5} 16. e3 {+0.28/20 10} Bd6
{-0.22/20 5} 17. Nf3 {+0.24/20 3} Qe7 {-0.11/20 2.8} 18. e4 {+0.33/16 0.6}
c6 {-0.01/18 2.4} 19. Bc4 {+0.12/20 7} Bg4 {-0.12/21 5} 20. Be2
{+0.16/20 2.2} Nf6 {-0.11/21 5} 21. d3 {+0.05/18 1.6} O-O {-0.08/20 5} 22.
O-O {+0.05/18 7} Bc5 {+0.00/19 6} 23. a3 {+0.06/18 4} a5 {+0.00/20 2.4} 24.
Bd2 {+0.10/18 2.0} b5 {+0.00/21 4} 25. Nd1 {+0.00/20 3} Nh5 {+0.00/23 3}
26. Ne3 {+0.00/20 1.9} Bxf3 {+0.00/24 2.2} 27. Bxf3 {+0.00/24 2.6} Rxf3
{+0.00/26 4} 28. gxf3 {+0.00/25 0.5} Qg5+ {+0.00/27 3} 29. Kh1 {+0.00/28 3}
Qf4 {+0.00/30 6} 30. Kg2 {+0.00/26 3} Qg5+ {+0.00/30 2.3} 31. Kh1
{+0.00/44 2.7} Qf4 {+0.00/32 4} 32. Kg2 {+0.00/29 3} Qg5+ {+0.00/34 4} 33.
Kh1 {+0.00/48 4}
{Draw by repetition} 1/2-1/2
Guenther
Long time ago I learnt that the value of he Queen was only 9, in most cases 2 rooks are stronger than one queen. There are different values to pieces in different positions, and there are even differences in starting values, according to different strong players, but with strong engines we are starting to learn different.Lyudmil Tsvetkov wrote:Not that I care, but even if you remove one pawn from white that is not central, say a2 or h2, white still wins.
And by a large margin. I do not have the slightest doubt about that.
I search all of GM Carlsen games and none he has exchanged his Queen for two Rooks or a Rook+ Knights + pawn. When Carlsen was a kid just days after he drew with Kasparov at age 12 he was interview by local Noriegian reporter and he stated that he loves playing with his Queen and avoid tradingNordlandia wrote:«Two rooks roughly balance a queen, but with equal pawns, the rooks are usually stronger. This is especially true if there are weak pawns to attack, since the rooks can double up and attack them more times than the queen can defend. This is a typical example»
«The Queen is weaker than two Rooks if the hostile King is protected against Checks, otherwise it may be stronger. Ceteris paribus, it would appear that the Queen is trifle weaker than two Rooks»
«A natural assumption is that the two rooks will be stronger than the queen in the majority of positions; another is that a material balance is struck when the side with the queen has an extra pawn. I must admit that, when I examined top-flight games from my database, I was surprised to see that the queen outscored the rooks. I would have predicted a small edge for the rooks but in fact the side with the queen managed 55%»
I searched all of GM Carlsen games and none he has exchanged his Queen for two Rooks or a Rook+ Knights + pawn. When Carlsen was a kid just days after he drew with Kasparov at age 12 he was interviewed by a local Norwegian reporter and he stated that he loves playing with his Queen and avoid trading his Queen at all cost.Nordlandia wrote:«Two rooks roughly balance a queen, but with equal pawns, the rooks are usually stronger. This is especially true if there are weak pawns to attack, since the rooks can double up and attack them more times than the queen can defend. This is a typical example»
«The Queen is weaker than two Rooks if the hostile King is protected against Checks, otherwise it may be stronger. Ceteris paribus, it would appear that the Queen is trifle weaker than two Rooks»
«A natural assumption is that the two rooks will be stronger than the queen in the majority of positions; another is that a material balance is struck when the side with the queen has an extra pawn. I must admit that, when I examined top-flight games from my database, I was surprised to see that the queen outscored the rooks. I would have predicted a small edge for the rooks but in fact the side with the queen managed 55%»