Cursed win at TCEC

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MikeB
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Re: Cursed win at TCEC

Post by MikeB » Wed Nov 16, 2016 4:50 pm

Lyudmil Tsvetkov wrote:
gladius wrote:
Houdini wrote:
whereagles wrote:Have a look:

http://tcec.chessdom.com/archive.php?se=9&sf&ga=17

Engines showing 0.00 due to 50-move rule, but position was auto-adjudicated as an M72 TB win :D

Discuss :)
Not much discussion possible.
Both engines know that it's a draw (0.00) and play accordingly.
Suddenly the GUI decides otherwise and is clearly not following the rules of chess as implemented in the engines.
It's kinda ridiculous, but not very important.
Agreed, it should be a draw. As I posted in the TCEC chat, the adjudication should match the result if the engines had played the position out. In this game, it was a 50 move draw.
I would not agree here with Gary.
A tablebase win is a tablebase win. The position is simply won for white, so why declare it a draw? If both engines assume it is 0.0, that is only their fault they still have not implemented the much more relevant 100-move draw rule instead of the well-outdated 50-move rule. (or, what is the longest tb win without captures/promotions/pawn move?)

I am not certain what FIDE says about the 50-move/100-move draw rule, but why should engines follow FIDE? Engines are at the cutting edge of progress and progress says abovementioned position is simply a win for the stronger side. It is simply time to implement longer draw rule than 50-moves.

That should be specified in some protocol though, I agree it was not quite fair to both Houdini and SF in terms of their lack of knowledge, but a win is a win.
If you are going to adjudicate games incorrectly , you are better serve to let the engines play the games out. At least that way , your results will be valid. The is technically a draw under the currrent rules of chess, you are no longer playing chess , but a game that is a derivative of chess. You migh as well be playing Gothic chess or some other derivative. Don't bother to respond , I have seen your other responses and you are totally clueless as to what the rules of chess are and I'm not here to persuade you. Have a good day !

Dan Cooper
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Re: Cursed win at TCEC

Post by Dan Cooper » Wed Nov 16, 2016 5:07 pm

The problem isn't the rules, but that no tournament manager supports adjudication via Syzygy. The purpose of adjudication is to shorten the game length. The adjudication isn't meant to circumvent the standard rules of chess but apply them in a way to automatically create a result so we don't have to watch a drawn 5-man position play out on the board until bare kings or a repetition.

Allowing Gaviota to adjudicate cursed wins in this way certainly goes against the spirit of the TCEC rules and the understanding of every chess author that submits his engine to the competition.

The merits of the 50-move rule in engine competitions are outside the scope of this debate.

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hgm
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Re: Cursed win at TCEC

Post by hgm » Wed Nov 16, 2016 5:23 pm

S.Taylor wrote:I don't understand. The TB said the position is a win. And the TB saw that BEFORE the 50 moves ended.
End of story!
Indeed, you don't understand.

The point is that the TB is WRONG. The position is a draw, but the TB mistakenly says it is a win.

S.Taylor
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Re: Cursed win at TCEC

Post by S.Taylor » Wed Nov 16, 2016 5:24 pm

But isn't computerchess a derivative?
Since when is a human allowed to consult tb's?
And until now, the win is not decided according to what is on the board or according to engines agreeing, but according to what TB's say is a win or draw.
This is not how it is with humans!

[If it was up to me, i would say the game should continue until both engines agree on the result, because this is what WOULD happen if played out. NOT that the TB's are allowed to butt in and change the end results, after all that work of playing the games and the spectators watching it with such great enthusiasm and anticipation of final outcome. But this is NOT the way things were done until now, and the TB's WERE allowed to butt in before i agreed that the losing engine was going to save the game or lose it. If you want to change this now, I'm all for it. But not in the middle of a stage or superfinal].

S.Taylor
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Re: Cursed win at TCEC

Post by S.Taylor » Wed Nov 16, 2016 5:27 pm

hgm wrote:
S.Taylor wrote:I don't understand. The TB said the position is a win. And the TB saw that BEFORE the 50 moves ended.
End of story!
Indeed, you don't understand.

The point is that the TB is WRONG. The position is a draw, but the TB mistakenly says it is a win.
Even after the 72 moves (or how ever many moves it stipulates) perfectly played by both sides?

rcmaddox
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Re: Cursed win at TCEC

Post by rcmaddox » Wed Nov 16, 2016 5:33 pm

basil00 wrote:
whereagles wrote:Discuss :)
If Stockfish wins the tournament based on this game, then the tournament result will also be a "cursed win".

I think the result should be amended; the rules of chess should trump any legalistic interpretation of the tournament rules (which I don't really care about...)
Stockfish just won game 21 so we might be looking at a lopsided Stockfish victory.

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Evert
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Re: Cursed win at TCEC

Post by Evert » Wed Nov 16, 2016 5:41 pm

Lyudmil Tsvetkov wrote: So, what should be done, is for a specific engine protocol to change the 50-moves rule to a larger number, at least 100, maybe referring only to specifically known tablebase positions. The 50-moves rule migth hold true for any other case(not to make the game too long), but, in the case of a known tablebase position, the rule might be changed to 100 moves.
So I can claim a draw after 50 moves without progress, but not if some tablebase says I can't?
Please no.

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Evert
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Re: Cursed win at TCEC

Post by Evert » Wed Nov 16, 2016 5:42 pm

S.Taylor wrote:
hgm wrote:
S.Taylor wrote:I don't understand. The TB said the position is a win. And the TB saw that BEFORE the 50 moves ended.
End of story!
Indeed, you don't understand.

The point is that the TB is WRONG. The position is a draw, but the TB mistakenly says it is a win.
Even after the 72 moves (or how ever many moves it stipulates) perfectly played by both sides?
Yes, because the Bishop side claims a draw after the first 50 moves.

Hai
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Re: Cursed win at TCEC

Post by Hai » Wed Nov 16, 2016 5:54 pm

This is very simple:
1.The position is won = 1-0.
2.Stockfish can easily see a mate in X moves = 1-0.
3.The 50 moves rule for engines, when the position is not a draw, :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: Who had this idea??? :lol: :lol: :lol:
4.Every tb position which is not a draw must be outplayed by engines.

S.Taylor
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Re: Cursed win at TCEC

Post by S.Taylor » Wed Nov 16, 2016 6:09 pm

Evert wrote:
S.Taylor wrote:
hgm wrote:
S.Taylor wrote:I don't understand. The TB said the position is a win. And the TB saw that BEFORE the 50 moves ended.
End of story!
Indeed, you don't understand.

The point is that the TB is WRONG. The position is a draw, but the TB mistakenly says it is a win.
Even after the 72 moves (or how ever many moves it stipulates) perfectly played by both sides?
Yes, because the Bishop side claims a draw after the first 50 moves.
It can't if the game was already over, which it normally is, as soon as there are only 7 or 6 pieces left on the board, because the end game TB's already knows the true result with perfect play on both sides.

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