A position almost every engine gets wrong

[MikeB]

[d]3k4/K2Q4/8/8/8/8/8/8 b - - 0 1

There is no legal move...

applicable FIDE rule :5.2b

Code: Select all

"The game is drawn when a position has arisen in which neither player can checkmate the opponent’s king with any series of legal moves. The game is said to end in a ‘dead position’. This immediately ends the game, provided that the move producing the position was in accordance with Article 3 and Articles 4.2 – 4.7."

I'm not sure if any engine gets it right, but I doubt it.

[Dann Corbit]

[d]3k4/K2Q4/8/8/8/8/8/8 b - - 0 1

There is no legal move...

applicable FIDE rule :5.2b

Code: Select all

"The game is drawn when a position has arisen in which neither player can checkmate the opponent’s king with any series of legal moves. The game is said to end in a ‘dead position’. This immediately ends the game, provided that the move producing the position was in accordance with Article 3 and Articles 4.2 – 4.7."

I'm not sure if any engine gets it right, but I doubt it.

Even so, the game will end in a draw if black illegally captures the queen.

[tpoppins]

I'm not sure if any engine gets it right

Who cares? The smart way to go about it is to let Cutechess with Gaviota TBs adjudicate it.

:)

[Joerg Oster]

[d]3k4/K2Q4/8/8/8/8/8/8 b - - 0 1

There is no legal move...

applicable FIDE rule :5.2b

Code: Select all

"The game is drawn when a position has arisen in which neither player can checkmate the opponent’s king with any series of legal moves. The game is said to end in a ‘dead position’. This immediately ends the game, provided that the move producing the position was in accordance with Article 3 and Articles 4.2 – 4.7."

I'm not sure if any engine gets it right, but I doubt it.

I fail to see what's wrong with Kxd7 and draw by insufficient mating material.

[Uri Blass]

[d]3k4/K2Q4/8/8/8/8/8/8 b - - 0 1

There is no legal move...

applicable FIDE rule :5.2b

Code: Select all

"The game is drawn when a position has arisen in which neither player can checkmate the opponent’s king with any series of legal moves. The game is said to end in a ‘dead position’. This immediately ends the game, provided that the move producing the position was in accordance with Article 3 and Articles 4.2 – 4.7."

I'm not sure if any engine gets it right, but I doubt it.

I agree that the game is finished but I do not agree that there is no legal move.

If I agree to your conclusion it means that white won this game.

From the fide rules:

1.2
"The objective of each player is to place the opponent’s king ‘under attack’ in such a way that the opponent has no legal move. The player who achieves this goal is said to have ‘checkmated’ the opponent’s king and to have won the game."

[Evert]

I fail to see what's wrong with Kxd7 and draw by insufficient mating material.

It's subtle:

The game is drawn when a position has arisen in which neither player can checkmate the opponent’s king with any series of legal moves. The game is said to end in a ‘dead position’.

The implication is that the game is already a draw in the given position, since no sequence of legal moves will result in checkmate. This ends the game immediately. Since the game has ended, there are no moves to be played.

Reading it this way is technically "rules as written", but almost certainly not "rules as intended".

[Uri Blass]

I fail to see what's wrong with Kxd7 and draw by insufficient mating material.

It's subtle:

The game is drawn when a position has arisen in which neither player can checkmate the opponent’s king with any series of legal moves. The game is said to end in a ‘dead position’.

The implication is that the game is already a draw in the given position, since no sequence of legal moves will result in checkmate. This ends the game immediately. Since the game has ended, there are no moves to be played.

Reading it this way is technically "rules as written", but almost certainly not "rules as intended".

The last claim that since the game has ended there are no moves to be played is wrong.

There is no problem with playing legal moves even in K vs K and they will not change the result of the game. Of course if the arbiter see it then the arbiter is going to stop the game and say it is a draw.

[MikeB]

[d]3k4/K2Q4/8/8/8/8/8/8 b - - 0 1

There is no legal move...

applicable FIDE rule :5.2b

Code: Select all

"The game is drawn when a position has arisen in which neither player can checkmate the opponent’s king with any series of legal moves. The game is said to end in a ‘dead position’. This immediately ends the game, provided that the move producing the position was in accordance with Article 3 and Articles 4.2 – 4.7."

I'm not sure if any engine gets it right, but I doubt it.

I fail to see what's wrong with Kxd7 and draw by insufficient mating material.

Technically, per the FIDE rule stated, the game was already over as the game was already in a dead position, i.e., neither player can checkmate the opponents king with any series of of legal moves, since black's only move is to capture the Q and there is no possible checkmate , the game is already over without taking the Q.

[Joerg Oster]

I fail to see what's wrong with Kxd7 and draw by insufficient mating material.

It's subtle:

The game is drawn when a position has arisen in which neither player can checkmate the opponent’s king with any series of legal moves. The game is said to end in a ‘dead position’.

The implication is that the game is already a draw in the given position, since no sequence of legal moves will result in checkmate. This ends the game immediately. Since the game has ended, there are no moves to be played.

Reading it this way is technically "rules as written", but almost certainly not "rules as intended".

Yes, understood.

But how do you know in the above position that it is NOT checkmate?

For me this rule clearly implies that neither side must be in check ...
This rule simply doesn't apply here.

And the claim by the OP that there is no legal move, is simply wrong.

[BeyondCritics]

[d]3k4/K2Q4/8/8/8/8/8/8 b - - 0 1

There is no legal move...

applicable FIDE rule :5.2b

Code: Select all

"The game is drawn when a position has arisen in which neither player can checkmate the opponent’s king with any series of legal moves. The game is said to end in a ‘dead position’. This immediately ends the game, provided that the move producing the position was in accordance with Article 3 and Articles 4.2 – 4.7."

I'm not sure if any engine gets it right, but I doubt it.

Good one.
The conclusion here is, according to the rules shown, that Qd7+ "immediately ends the game" with a draw.
In FIDE chess, it is irrelevant, what happens after the end of the game. Therefore "Kxd7" is neither legal nor illegal, it is simply something that is not considered.
E.g. black could claim a draw, even if he was flagged, before he could do anything. He could resign, that would be irrelevant also.