Inspired by this thread:
http://www.talkchess.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=65051
and keeping the name of the variant given by Jon Fredrik Åsvang, I modified the most probably decided in favor of Black opening position to this one:
[D]1nn1k1n1/4p3/8/8/8/PPPPPPPP/8/4K3 w - - 0 1
If a player stronger than me shows how to play correctly this variant and the theoretical result of it, it would be helpful. As I am more of a patzer in deciding on the decisiveness of the Black advantage here, I left Komodo 11.2.2 play self-games. I built a a 3-mover opening book containing 1000+ positions using the same Komodo, as it randomizes better, and has the "Variety" parameter. The EPD book of 1000+ positions is here:
http://s000.tinyupload.com/?file_id=009 ... 2378736001
The unbalance here is accentuated, and there are two nice properties to this Endgame Chess variant: the position is borderline Black win versus Draw (about 50% to 50%), and is very sensitive to 6-men Syzygy (from SSD). These borderline positions are desirable in order to separate in strength engines, a slight slip can lead from draw to loss and vice-versa. Using pentanomial variance here, the errors one sees in Cutechess (trinomial errors) are really 1.7-1.8 times smaller. It is important to not have any kind of adjudication, engines misevaluate the positions during the game, and might claim adjudication, even when the game should go on.
On two threads, from that 3-mover book, Komodo 11.2.2 with Syzygy 6-men default Probe Depth=2 from SSD, the results were in 100 self-games:
10''+ 0.1''
50 Black wins, 50 draws
60''+ 0.6''
51 Black wins, 49 draws
360''+ 3.6''
44 Black wins, 56 draws
Really hard to decide if there is a trend towards one outcome or the other.
Komodo 11.2.2 (Contempt=0) beats easily Stockfish dev. in 100 games at 60''+ 0.6''. Syzygy 6-men from SSD for both:
60''+ 0.6''
Score of Stockfish dev vs Komodo 11.2.2: 30 - 65 - 105 [0.412] 200
ELO difference: -61.43 +/- 33.17
Finished match
95 Black wins, 105 draws
Also, the game is extremely sensitive to Syzygy, even better than the most sensitive to Syzygy endgame suites I had:
60''+ 0.6''
Score of Komodo Syzygy vs Komodo NO TB: 71 - 28 - 101 [0.608] 200
ELO difference: 75.88 +/- 33.89
Finished match
99 Black wins, 101 draws
The real errors here using the pentanomial are about 18-19 ELO points instead of the shown by Cutechess-Cli trinomial 33-34 ELO points.
All in all, this borderline variant helps in seeing the engines dealing with accentuated endgame disbalances and benefiting from Syzygy, 6-men from SSD in my case. It has a very high sensitivity to these two issues
"Peasant Revolt" Endgame Chess
Moderators: hgm, Rebel, chrisw
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- Full name: Kai Laskos
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Re: "Peasant Revolt" Endgame Chess
Good modification. This minor tweak is more interesting. Can't decide if black is
clearly winning this time.
But it seems there's no white wins on your self game stats.
Maybe this means it is just =+ position, where white has only drawing chances.
.
clearly winning this time.
But it seems there's no white wins on your self game stats.
10''+ 0.1''
50 Black wins, 50 draws
60''+ 0.6''
51 Black wins, 49 draws
360''+ 3.6''
44 Black wins, 56 draws
Really hard to decide if there is a trend towards one outcome or the other.
Komodo 11.2.2 (Contempt=0) beats easily Stockfish dev. in 100 games at 60''+ 0.6''. Syzygy 6-men from SSD for both:
60''+ 0.6''
Score of Stockfish dev vs Komodo 11.2.2: 30 - 65 - 105 [0.412] 200
ELO difference: -61.43 +/- 33.17
Finished match
95 Black wins, 105 draws
Also, the game is extremely sensitive to Syzygy, even better than the most sensitive to Syzygy endgame suites I had:
60''+ 0.6''
Score of Komodo Syzygy vs Komodo NO TB: 71 - 28 - 101 [0.608] 200
ELO difference: 75.88 +/- 33.89
Finished match
99 Black wins, 101 draws
Maybe this means it is just =+ position, where white has only drawing chances.
.
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Re: "Peasant Revolt" Endgame Chess
Yes, in all these matches White had 0 wins, the position is clearly favoring Black, maybe not decisively though. But that's the idea, to have 50% Black wins, and 50% draws, and White performance of 25%. That 50% seems to be stable across time controls, hard to see any clear trend. The sensitivity to imbalance and Syzygy seems to be the highest in this 50%/50%/0% case.MikeGL wrote:Good modification. This minor tweak is more interesting. Can't decide if black is
clearly winning this time.
But it seems there's no white wins on your self game stats.
10''+ 0.1''
50 Black wins, 50 draws
60''+ 0.6''
51 Black wins, 49 draws
360''+ 3.6''
44 Black wins, 56 draws
Really hard to decide if there is a trend towards one outcome or the other.
Komodo 11.2.2 (Contempt=0) beats easily Stockfish dev. in 100 games at 60''+ 0.6''. Syzygy 6-men from SSD for both:
60''+ 0.6''
Score of Stockfish dev vs Komodo 11.2.2: 30 - 65 - 105 [0.412] 200
ELO difference: -61.43 +/- 33.17
Finished match
95 Black wins, 105 draws
Also, the game is extremely sensitive to Syzygy, even better than the most sensitive to Syzygy endgame suites I had:
60''+ 0.6''
Score of Komodo Syzygy vs Komodo NO TB: 71 - 28 - 101 [0.608] 200
ELO difference: 75.88 +/- 33.89
Finished match
99 Black wins, 101 draws
Maybe this means it is just =+ position, where white has only drawing chances.
.
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Re: "Peasant Revolt" Endgame Chess
Here is a small rating list for "Peasant Revolt" of top engines, 1440 games in 40x Round-Robin at 400ms per move:
Syzygy enabled engines had 6-men Syzygy on SSD.
And 10-20 minute analyses of Komodo 11.2.2 and Stockfish dev on 4 cores:
[D]1nn1k1n1/4p3/8/8/8/PPPPPPPP/8/4K3 w - -
Komodo
Stockfish
Code: Select all
Program Elo + - Games Score Av.Op. Draws
1 Komodo 11.2.2 64-bit : 3136 25 25 320 66.6 % 2983 43.1 %
2 Stockfish 260817 64 BMI2 : 3073 23 23 320 59.1 % 2991 47.5 %
3 Deep Shredder 13 x64 : 3044 24 24 320 55.5 % 2995 50.3 %
4 Houdini 5.01 Pro x64-popc : 3043 24 24 320 55.3 % 2995 53.8 %
5 Gull 3 x64 : 3020 23 23 320 52.5 % 2997 39.4 %
6 Fire 5 x64 : 2966 24 24 320 45.8 % 3004 42.8 %
7 Fritz 15 : 2935 23 23 320 41.9 % 3008 48.1 %
8 Andscacs 0.91b : 2918 23 23 320 39.8 % 3010 56.6 %
9 Booot 6.2_x64 : 2866 24 24 320 33.6 % 3017 50.3 %
Games : 1440 (finished)
White Wins : 75 (5.2 %)
Black Wins : 674 (46.8 %)
Draws : 691 (48.0 %)
Unfinished : 0
White Score : 29.2 %
Black Score : 70.8 %
And 10-20 minute analyses of Komodo 11.2.2 and Stockfish dev on 4 cores:
[D]1nn1k1n1/4p3/8/8/8/PPPPPPPP/8/4K3 w - -
Komodo
Code: Select all
Engine: Komodo 11.2.2 64-bit (2048 MB)
by Don Dailey, Larry Kaufman, Mark Lefler
29.01 2:38 -0.58-- 1.c4 Nc6 (898.497.144) 5671
TB:319.387
29.01 3:52 -0.63 1.c4 Nf6 2.g4 Nc6 3.Kd2 e6 4.f4 e5
5.Kc3 exf4 6.exf4 Nb6 7.b4 Nfd7
8.Kd2 Na4 9.Ke3 Kf7 10.h4 Ne7 11.h5 Nf6
12.Kf3 Nc6 13.h6 Nd4+ 14.Ke3 (1.306.093.370) 5619
TB:514.426
30.01 4:40 -0.57++ 1.c4 Nf6 2.Ke2 (1.572.298.268) 5601
TB:670.977
30.01 5:04 -0.60 1.c4 Nf6 2.Ke2 Nc6 3.g4 e6 4.Kd2 Ke7
5.f4 e5 6.Kc3 exf4 7.exf4 Nb6 8.f5 Kf7
9.a4 Kg7 10.a5 Nxa5 11.Kb4 Nb7
12.Kb5 Nc8 13.Kc6 Na5+ 14.Kc7 (1.702.855.602) 5590
TB:747.603
31.01 5:55 -0.54++ 1.c4 Nf6 2.Ke2 (1.980.836.829) 5575
TB:929.792
31.01 6:38 -0.61-- 1.c4 Nc6 (2.227.303.936) 5596
TB:1.122.899
31.01 8:22 -0.62 1.c4 Nf6 2.Ke2 Nc6 3.g4 e6 4.Kd2 Ke7
5.h4 Kd7 6.b4 Ne5 7.Ke2 Ne7 8.a4 N7g6
9.g5 Nh5 10.f4 Nf7 11.c5 e5 12.fxe5 Nxh4
13.d4 Nxg5 14.b5 (2.836.689.267) 5647
TB:1.604.093
32.01 9:32 -0.56++ 1.c4 Nf6 2.Kd2 (3.234.704.654) 5654
TB:1.932.058
Code: Select all
Engine: Stockfish 260817 64 BMI2 (2048 MB)
by T. Romstad, M. Costalba, J. Kiiski, G.
36/54 11:31 -1.00 1.c4 Nf6 2.g4 Nc6 3.h4 e6 4.Ke2 Kf7
5.Kd2 Ke7 6.Ke2 e5 7.b4 Ke6 8.h5 Nd6
9.Kd2 e4 10.fxe4 Ne5 11.c5 Nde8
12.g5 Nxh5 13.b5 Ng3 14.a4 (5.245.535.166) 7581
TB:4.127.524
37/40 11:38 -1.07-- 1.c4 Nf6 (5.301.485.761) 7585
TB:4.172.900
37/40 11:46 -1.15-- 1.c4 Nf6 (5.358.712.368) 7587
TB:4.213.284
37/52 12:09 -1.07++ 1.c4 (5.543.430.083) 7596
TB:4.390.894
37/58 14:51 -0.92++ 1.c4 (6.818.986.281) 7644
TB:5.799.077
37/58 16:13 -1.26-- 1.c4 Nf6 (7.461.387.273) 7665
TB:6.554.305
37/61 16:21 -0.98++ 1.c4 (7.527.161.527) 7666
TB:6.608.850
37/61 16:28 -1.07 1.c4 Nf6 2.g4 Nc6 3.Kd2 Kd7 4.b4 Ne5
5.Ke2 Nb6 6.h4 Ng6 7.h5 Ne5 8.e4 Na4
9.c5 Nf7 10.d4 Nb2 11.b5 e5 12.dxe5 Nxe5
13.c6+ Kc7 14.Ke3 (7.577.040.735) 7668
TB:6.727.261
38/58 16:36 -1.15-- 1.c4 Nf6 (7.645.071.233) 7669
TB:6.778.267
38/58 17:10 -1.22-- 1.c4 Nf6 (7.909.307.571) 7678
TB:7.143.521
38/58 18:33 -1.15++ 1.c4 (8.567.219.756) 7695
TB:8.082.549
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Re: "Peasant Revolt" Endgame Chess
this is extremely specific, as it is important not to sac one knight for a couple of pawns and then maybe win, maybe not, depending on the rank and file the pawn for the weaker side is placed on.Laskos wrote:Inspired by this thread:
http://www.talkchess.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=65051
and keeping the name of the variant given by Jon Fredrik Åsvang, I modified the most probably decided in favor of Black opening position to this one:
[D]1nn1k1n1/4p3/8/8/8/PPPPPPPP/8/4K3 w - - 0 1
If a player stronger than me shows how to play correctly this variant and the theoretical result of it, it would be helpful. As I am more of a patzer in deciding on the decisiveness of the Black advantage here, I left Komodo 11.2.2 play self-games. I built a a 3-mover opening book containing 1000+ positions using the same Komodo, as it randomizes better, and has the "Variety" parameter. The EPD book of 1000+ positions is here:
http://s000.tinyupload.com/?file_id=009 ... 2378736001
The unbalance here is accentuated, and there are two nice properties to this Endgame Chess variant: the position is borderline Black win versus Draw (about 50% to 50%), and is very sensitive to 6-men Syzygy (from SSD). These borderline positions are desirable in order to separate in strength engines, a slight slip can lead from draw to loss and vice-versa. Using pentanomial variance here, the errors one sees in Cutechess (trinomial errors) are really 1.7-1.8 times smaller. It is important to not have any kind of adjudication, engines misevaluate the positions during the game, and might claim adjudication, even when the game should go on.
On two threads, from that 3-mover book, Komodo 11.2.2 with Syzygy 6-men default Probe Depth=2 from SSD, the results were in 100 self-games:
10''+ 0.1''
50 Black wins, 50 draws
60''+ 0.6''
51 Black wins, 49 draws
360''+ 3.6''
44 Black wins, 56 draws
Really hard to decide if there is a trend towards one outcome or the other.
Komodo 11.2.2 (Contempt=0) beats easily Stockfish dev. in 100 games at 60''+ 0.6''. Syzygy 6-men from SSD for both:
60''+ 0.6''
Score of Stockfish dev vs Komodo 11.2.2: 30 - 65 - 105 [0.412] 200
ELO difference: -61.43 +/- 33.17
Finished match
95 Black wins, 105 draws
Also, the game is extremely sensitive to Syzygy, even better than the most sensitive to Syzygy endgame suites I had:
60''+ 0.6''
Score of Komodo Syzygy vs Komodo NO TB: 71 - 28 - 101 [0.608] 200
ELO difference: 75.88 +/- 33.89
Finished match
99 Black wins, 101 draws
The real errors here using the pentanomial are about 18-19 ELO points instead of the shown by Cutechess-Cli trinomial 33-34 ELO points.
All in all, this borderline variant helps in seeing the engines dealing with accentuated endgame disbalances and benefiting from Syzygy, 6-men from SSD in my case. It has a very high sensitivity to these two issues
if you don't have tbs, then you simply don't know when a sac works and when not, and most positions would simply boil down to this.
I am not certain if SF and Komodo have 2Ns vs P endgame knowledge, probably not, as too detailed, and even if they do have only knowledge that 2Ns vs bare king is draw.
but even if they have the second one, that does not help in any way, as there is a surplus pawn.
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Re: "Peasant Revolt" Endgame Chess
I think your insight is good. This is regarding the sensitivity to Syzygy (6-men from SSD in my case) versus no TB. The difference seems huge, at least in Komodo and Stockfish cases. Indeed, this is very peculiar to position, and engines make that sac decision pretty late in the game, so openings here don't matter much, therefore built opening book doesn't distort the result. There is a third property of the positions (and the built opening book). At 2160''+21.6'' (6 times the previous 360''+ 3.6''), the result between two identical Komodo 11.2.2 with 6-men Syzygy from SSD in 100 games was 48 Black wins, 52 draws:Lyudmil Tsvetkov wrote:this is extremely specific, as it is important not to sac one knight for a couple of pawns and then maybe win, maybe not, depending on the rank and file the pawn for the weaker side is placed on.Laskos wrote:
All in all, this borderline variant helps in seeing the engines dealing with accentuated endgame disbalances and benefiting from Syzygy, 6-men from SSD in my case. It has a very high sensitivity to these two issues
if you don't have tbs, then you simply don't know when a sac works and when not, and most positions would simply boil down to this.
I am not certain if SF and Komodo have 2Ns vs P endgame knowledge, probably not, as too detailed, and even if they do have only knowledge that 2Ns vs bare king is draw.
but even if they have the second one, that does not help in any way, as there is a surplus pawn.
100 games matches:
1x time control:
10''+ 0.1''
50 Black wins, 50 draws, 0 White wins
6x time control:
60''+ 0.6''
51 Black wins, 49 draws, 0 White wins
6x6 = 36x time control:
360''+ 3.6''
44 Black wins, 56 draws, 0 White wins
6x6x6 = 216x time control:
2160''+ 21.6''
48 Black wins, 52 draws, 0 White wins
No any scaling with time control. This is again very peculiar, usually outcomes White/Draw/Black scale with time control control, whether balanced or unbalanced openings.
The peculiarities of this opening (and the built book) are the following:
- 1/ This borderline variant helps in seeing the engines dealing with accentuated endgame disbalances.
2/ Benefits heavily from Syzygy, 6-men from SSD in my case.
3/ Always stays borderline with close in strength engines, close to 50% Black wins, 50% draws, independent of time control. This is the sweet point of sensitivity with unbalanced openings using pentanomial variance.
[D]1nn1k1n1/4p3/8/8/8/PPPPPPPP/8/4K3 w - - 0 1
Median game: 55.5 moves
Commonest game: 49 moves
Observe very many 100-150 moves games. Compare that to another variant, although not very related, of "Theban Chess". It also has only Knights and pawns, but many more pawns. "Theban Chess" is very balanced White/Black performance (but not the position itself), with very few draws (10-15%), and the play should be very aggressive from the start.
[D]1p6/2p3kn/3p2pp/4pppp/5ppp/8/PPPPPPPP/PPPPPPKN w - - 0 0
The game length distribution is the following:
Median game: 33 moves
Commonest game: 28 moves
All in all, I think I will use "Peasant Revolt Chess" to check engines in endgame imbalances and Syzygy use, the position seems very peculiar, sensitive and still undecided if Black can win or White can hold.
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Re: "Peasant Revolt" Endgame Chess
A small rating list of top 10 engines at Blitz 360''+ 3.6''. The error margins as shown in Ordo are really 1.7-1.8 times smaller using pentanomial variance. Syzygy 6-men in use for engines supporting them.
Observe the underperformance of Stockfish in this disbalance, although it used Syzygy 6-men from SSD.
Code: Select all
Program Elo + - Games Score Av.Op. Draws
1 Komodo 11.2.2 64-bit : 3156 40 40 90 67.8 % 2983 53.3 %
2 Deep Shredder 13 x64 : 3091 42 42 90 60.6 % 2990 54.4 %
3 Stockfish 260817 64 BMI2 : 3082 40 40 90 59.4 % 2991 47.8 %
4 Gull 3 x64 : 3057 40 40 90 56.7 % 2994 44.4 %
5 Houdini 5.01 Pro x64-popc : 3014 42 42 90 51.7 % 2998 52.2 %
6 Fire 5 x64 : 2971 42 42 90 46.7 % 3003 46.7 %
7 Fritz 15 : 2952 40 40 90 44.4 % 3005 62.2 %
8 Andscacs 0.91b : 2918 44 44 90 40.6 % 3009 56.7 %
9 Fizbo 1.9 : 2909 42 42 90 39.4 % 3010 47.8 %
10 Booot 6.2_x64 : 2849 42 42 90 32.8 % 3017 56.7 %
Games : 450 (finished)
White Wins : 6 (1.3 %)
Black Wins : 209 (46.4 %)
Draws : 235 (52.2 %)
Unfinished : 0
White Score : 27.4 %
Black Score : 72.6 %
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Re: "Peasant Revolt" Endgame Chess
The book is on the way since 10 days ago or so....
Let me know on arrival.
Misterious transactions here regards
Fern
Let me know on arrival.
Misterious transactions here regards
Fern
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- Posts: 10948
- Joined: Wed Jul 26, 2006 10:21 pm
- Full name: Kai Laskos
Re: "Peasant Revolt" Endgame Chess
Nothing yet here, checked this morning. My personal messaging on talkchess was messed up, the box was full or something like that, I still have a message to you in the outbox not received by you. Thanks, and if we manage personal messaging, I will send you the photos of two coins I bought when on that trip, you will choose an emperor you like more (sorry, no republican ones bought there). Thanks again!fern wrote:The book is on the way since 10 days ago or so....
Let me know on arrival.
Misterious transactions here regards
Fern
Mafia never dies!
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Re: "Peasant Revolt" Endgame Chess
according to Chilean mail service, the package is already in Rumania, so it is a matter of local delivery now
Fern
Fern