BrendanJNorman wrote:It's rather strange to say that Elo doesn't matter in one thread, and then jump on the Stockfish train in another.
Ah, but the big thing happening here is that the latest implementation of Stockfish Contempt is like some built-in style modifier.
Think of ProDeo's "Attractiveness" setting, except some values make Stockfish play both more stylish AND stronger!
So the question is not what engine is strong enough to show its style against Stockfish...
The question is... WHAT IF
Stockfish is already playing with a better style than OpenTal, but hundreds of elo stronger?
How would we know? Is it that Stockfish is so strong that its strength obscures any possible style it has? What if there's some optimal value of Contempt that increases the Style/Strength Ratio to the max and it's between 40 and 100, say Contempt=66 plays with better style than OpenTal, but 67 or 65 doesn't?
I wouldn't have made this thread if the event where the engine with the best style was also the strongest one didn't seem so close, but I want to be ready because we're so focused on sub2900 elo engines that we might miss it.
I wonder if you'd have included Stockfish with Contempt=40 in your list if it had some 2600 elo, and it seems like some discrimination against strong engines...
Yeah, strength doesn't matter, but it goes both ways! I jumped on the Stockfish train because of the awesome playing style it is showing, not its strenhth! john dalhem even thought the sides were swapped and OpenTal was making Stockfish moves!
So here's an idea:
1. Find whatever depth makes Stockfish play at OpenTal's level. We can't just let them play until OT wins a game, because it'd take forever, we weaken SF.
2. Play a match between them, this match will have some 50% performance so both sides have the same number of wins, loses and draws. Play some extra games and throw away the ones you don't need to achieve this.
3. Shuffle the games AND REMOVE THE NAMES OF THE PLAYERS
, like in a turing test.
4. Have a judge look at the games and, on a game per game basis, decide what engine played with the better style. This is better than having to go to specific positions to give awards to hung pieces or queen gambits (where the queen is given away) due to speed, you just do 1-0 or 0-1 results depending on what engine showed the better style, regardless of game result.
If at the end of such a thing, Stockfish has more "style" points, my point would have been proven. If OpenTal's style becomes really apparent and it leaves Stockfish with 0 point, it has proven the soundness of the method, win-win!
So what do you say Brendan? Are you willing to be the judge and take a look at some games played and award points to the side with best style to see if this thing works at all?
The hardest part will be to produce the games, but I already have an idea of how to achieve same level quickly...
Your beliefs create your reality, so be careful what you wish for.