spectacular Komodo handicap game

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lkaufman
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spectacular Komodo handicap game

Post by lkaufman » Wed Mar 07, 2018 10:23 pm

The following handicap game was perhaps the most spectacular one I have ever seen. It was one of an unofficial series played on chess.com between Komodo 11.3.1 (on my i9 16 core machine) and my son Raymond Kaufman, who is an IM. These games were played to test out automated play on chess.com as well as to test Komodo 11.3.1 and to try out various handicaps for future use in official games. Although they were unofficial, Ray took them seriously and used his time. Time limit for this game was 15 min plus 10 sec per move. Handicap was Knight (g1) for tempo, meaning White gets to play his first move (e4), Black "takes" White's knight off, and it is then White's move. Philidor used to give this handicap in the 1790s to players too strong for knight odds but not strong enough for pawn and two or three moves. I think it works for this purpose.

[pgn][Event "Knight for tempo handicap"]
[Site "chess.com"]
[Date "2018.03.07"]
[Round "?"]
[White "Komodo 11.3.1"]
[Black "Kaufman, Raymond"]
[Result "1-0"]
[Annotator "Kaufman,Larry"]
[SetUp "1"]
[FEN "rnbqkbnr/pppppppp/8/8/4P3/8/PPPP1PPP/RNBQKB1R w KQkq - 0 1"]
[PlyCount "57"]
[SourceDate "2018.03.07"]
[SourceVersionDate "2018.03.07"]

{[#]} 1. d4 d6 2. Be3 Nf6 3. Nc3 c6 4. f3 e5 5. Qd2 h5 6. h3 Nbd7 7. O-O-O Be7
8. Rg1 h4 9. Kb1 Nh5 10. Bc4 O-O 11. Ne2 exd4 12. Bxd4 Ne5 13. Bb3 Bf6 14. f4
Ng6 15. g4 hxg3 16. f5 Ne5 17. Nxg3 Nf3 18. Qd3 Nxg3 19. Qxf3 Bxd4 20. Rxd4 Qf6
21. Rxg3 d5 22. Qf2 Re8 23. a4 dxe4 24. Rg6 Qxf5 25. Qg1 Qe5 26. Rxe4 Qxe4 27.
Rxg7+ Kh8 28. Qg5 Bf5 29. Rxf7 1-0 [/pgn]
Komodo rules!

JJJ
Posts: 1190
Joined: Sat Apr 19, 2014 11:47 am

Re: spectacular Komodo handicap game

Post by JJJ » Thu Mar 08, 2018 9:41 am

Nice ! That's means Knight handicap might be possible if Komodo plays white and with one move advantage.

Milos
Posts: 2984
Joined: Wed Nov 25, 2009 12:47 am

Re: spectacular Komodo handicap game

Post by Milos » Thu Mar 08, 2018 3:57 pm

lkaufman wrote:The following handicap game was perhaps the most spectacular one I have ever seen. It was one of an unofficial series played on chess.com between Komodo 11.3.1 (on my i9 16 core machine) and my son Raymond Kaufman, who is an IM. These games were played to test out automated play on chess.com as well as to test Komodo 11.3.1 and to try out various handicaps for future use in official games. Although they were unofficial, Ray took them seriously and used his time. Time limit for this game was 15 min plus 10 sec per move. Handicap was Knight (g1) for tempo, meaning White gets to play his first move (e4), Black "takes" White's knight off, and it is then White's move. Philidor used to give this handicap in the 1790s to players too strong for knight odds but not strong enough for pawn and two or three moves. I think it works for this purpose.

[pgn][Event "Knight for tempo handicap"]
[Site "chess.com"]
[Date "2018.03.07"]
[Round "?"]
[White "Komodo 11.3.1"]
[Black "Kaufman, Raymond"]
[Result "1-0"]
[Annotator "Kaufman,Larry"]
[SetUp "1"]
[FEN "rnbqkbnr/pppppppp/8/8/4P3/8/PPPP1PPP/RNBQKB1R w KQkq - 0 1"]
[PlyCount "57"]
[SourceDate "2018.03.07"]
[SourceVersionDate "2018.03.07"]

{[#]} 1. d4 d6 2. Be3 Nf6 3. Nc3 c6 4. f3 e5 5. Qd2 h5 6. h3 Nbd7 7. O-O-O Be7
8. Rg1 h4 9. Kb1 Nh5 10. Bc4 O-O 11. Ne2 exd4 12. Bxd4 Ne5 13. Bb3 Bf6 14. f4
Ng6 15. g4 hxg3 16. f5 Ne5 17. Nxg3 Nf3 18. Qd3 Nxg3 19. Qxf3 Bxd4 20. Rxd4 Qf6
21. Rxg3 d5 22. Qf2 Re8 23. a4 dxe4 24. Rg6 Qxf5 25. Qg1 Qe5 26. Rxe4 Qxe4 27.
Rxg7+ Kh8 28. Qg5 Bf5 29. Rxf7 1-0 [/pgn]
No offence, but your son really has no clue how to play a strong engine. This looks like someone well below 2000Elo. Some black moves after move 10 are simply atrocious. He literally gave away a minor piece with that 16...Ne5 and then committed suicide with 24...Qxf5.

lkaufman
Posts: 3116
Joined: Sun Jan 10, 2010 5:15 am
Location: Maryland USA
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Re: spectacular Komodo handicap game

Post by lkaufman » Thu Mar 08, 2018 4:34 pm

Milos wrote:
lkaufman wrote:The following handicap game was perhaps the most spectacular one I have ever seen. It was one of an unofficial series played on chess.com between Komodo 11.3.1 (on my i9 16 core machine) and my son Raymond Kaufman, who is an IM. These games were played to test out automated play on chess.com as well as to test Komodo 11.3.1 and to try out various handicaps for future use in official games. Although they were unofficial, Ray took them seriously and used his time. Time limit for this game was 15 min plus 10 sec per move. Handicap was Knight (g1) for tempo, meaning White gets to play his first move (e4), Black "takes" White's knight off, and it is then White's move. Philidor used to give this handicap in the 1790s to players too strong for knight odds but not strong enough for pawn and two or three moves. I think it works for this purpose.

[pgn][Event "Knight for tempo handicap"]
[Site "chess.com"]
[Date "2018.03.07"]
[Round "?"]
[White "Komodo 11.3.1"]
[Black "Kaufman, Raymond"]
[Result "1-0"]
[Annotator "Kaufman,Larry"]
[SetUp "1"]
[FEN "rnbqkbnr/pppppppp/8/8/4P3/8/PPPP1PPP/RNBQKB1R w KQkq - 0 1"]
[PlyCount "57"]
[SourceDate "2018.03.07"]
[SourceVersionDate "2018.03.07"]

{[#]} 1. d4 d6 2. Be3 Nf6 3. Nc3 c6 4. f3 e5 5. Qd2 h5 6. h3 Nbd7 7. O-O-O Be7
8. Rg1 h4 9. Kb1 Nh5 10. Bc4 O-O 11. Ne2 exd4 12. Bxd4 Ne5 13. Bb3 Bf6 14. f4
Ng6 15. g4 hxg3 16. f5 Ne5 17. Nxg3 Nf3 18. Qd3 Nxg3 19. Qxf3 Bxd4 20. Rxd4 Qf6
21. Rxg3 d5 22. Qf2 Re8 23. a4 dxe4 24. Rg6 Qxf5 25. Qg1 Qe5 26. Rxe4 Qxe4 27.
Rxg7+ Kh8 28. Qg5 Bf5 29. Rxf7 1-0 [/pgn]
No offence, but your son really has no clue how to play a strong engine. This looks like someone well below 2000Elo. Some black moves after move 10 are simply atrocious. He literally gave away a minor piece with that 16...Ne5 and then committed suicide with 24...Qxf5.
I was watching the game (without seeing any analysis) and none of Ray's moves looked obviously bad to me at the time. It is quite hard to see that 17...Nf3 doesn't work. His moves before that point all look normal; some may be bad moves but not in my opinion below the level I would expect from a low-rated IM playing a rapid game. Ray is rated 2266 on chess.com blitz, which is low for an IM but not way low. At 5' + 5" blitz he was even with Komodo at knight plus White odds, behind at just knight odds (playing Black). This seems about right to me for his rating.
Komodo rules!

lkaufman
Posts: 3116
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Re: spectacular Komodo handicap game

Post by lkaufman » Thu Mar 08, 2018 4:40 pm

JJJ wrote:Nice ! That's means Knight handicap might be possible if Komodo plays white and with one move advantage.
Yes, now we need a good name for this handicap. "Knight for tempo" is one idea. Suggestions are welcome.
It now looks to me that the natural handicap progression is f2, f7, f7 with e4 played ("pawn and two moves"), fu with e4 and d4 played ("pawn and three moves"), knight (g1 removed seems to work better than b1) with e4 played ("kniight for tempo"), knight odds (can alternate knights), knight and move (Komodo plays Black alternating knights), knight and two moves (White gets e4 and first move), rook (a1), rook and move (a8).
Komodo rules!

S.Taylor
Posts: 7753
Joined: Thu Mar 09, 2006 2:25 am
Location: Jerusalem Israel

Re: spectacular Komodo handicap game

Post by S.Taylor » Fri Mar 09, 2018 5:16 am

lkaufman wrote:The following handicap game was perhaps the most spectacular one I have ever seen. It was one of an unofficial series played on chess.com between Komodo 11.3.1 (on my i9 16 core machine) and my son Raymond Kaufman, who is an IM. These games were played to test out automated play on chess.com as well as to test Komodo 11.3.1 and to try out various handicaps for future use in official games. Although they were unofficial, Ray took them seriously and used his time. Time limit for this game was 15 min plus 10 sec per move. Handicap was Knight (g1) for tempo, meaning White gets to play his first move (e4), Black "takes" White's knight off, and it is then White's move. Philidor used to give this handicap in the 1790s to players too strong for knight odds but not strong enough for pawn and two or three moves. I think it works for this purpose.

[pgn][Event "Knight for tempo handicap"]
[Site "chess.com"]
[Date "2018.03.07"]
[Round "?"]
[White "Komodo 11.3.1"]
[Black "Kaufman, Raymond"]
[Result "1-0"]
[Annotator "Kaufman,Larry"]
[SetUp "1"]
[FEN "rnbqkbnr/pppppppp/8/8/4P3/8/PPPP1PPP/RNBQKB1R w KQkq - 0 1"]
[PlyCount "57"]
[SourceDate "2018.03.07"]
[SourceVersionDate "2018.03.07"]

{[#]} 1. d4 d6 2. Be3 Nf6 3. Nc3 c6 4. f3 e5 5. Qd2 h5 6. h3 Nbd7 7. O-O-O Be7
8. Rg1 h4 9. Kb1 Nh5 10. Bc4 O-O 11. Ne2 exd4 12. Bxd4 Ne5 13. Bb3 Bf6 14. f4
Ng6 15. g4 hxg3 16. f5 Ne5 17. Nxg3 Nf3 18. Qd3 Nxg3 19. Qxf3 Bxd4 20. Rxd4 Qf6
21. Rxg3 d5 22. Qf2 Re8 23. a4 dxe4 24. Rg6 Qxf5 25. Qg1 Qe5 26. Rxe4 Qxe4 27.
Rxg7+ Kh8 28. Qg5 Bf5 29. Rxf7 1-0 [/pgn]
My belief is that you cannot really judge a sub 2700 human when tactics go out of hand vs a top engine. Certainly not in a rapid tc. U need to analize it later with engine to see if real inroads have been made that can truly outwit material handicaps.

lkaufman
Posts: 3116
Joined: Sun Jan 10, 2010 5:15 am
Location: Maryland USA
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Re: spectacular Komodo handicap game

Post by lkaufman » Fri Mar 09, 2018 6:47 am

S.Taylor wrote:
lkaufman wrote:The following handicap game was perhaps the most spectacular one I have ever seen. It was one of an unofficial series played on chess.com between Komodo 11.3.1 (on my i9 16 core machine) and my son Raymond Kaufman, who is an IM. These games were played to test out automated play on chess.com as well as to test Komodo 11.3.1 and to try out various handicaps for future use in official games. Although they were unofficial, Ray took them seriously and used his time. Time limit for this game was 15 min plus 10 sec per move. Handicap was Knight (g1) for tempo, meaning White gets to play his first move (e4), Black "takes" White's knight off, and it is then White's move. Philidor used to give this handicap in the 1790s to players too strong for knight odds but not strong enough for pawn and two or three moves. I think it works for this purpose.

[pgn][Event "Knight for tempo handicap"]
[Site "chess.com"]
[Date "2018.03.07"]
[Round "?"]
[White "Komodo 11.3.1"]
[Black "Kaufman, Raymond"]
[Result "1-0"]
[Annotator "Kaufman,Larry"]
[SetUp "1"]
[FEN "rnbqkbnr/pppppppp/8/8/4P3/8/PPPP1PPP/RNBQKB1R w KQkq - 0 1"]
[PlyCount "57"]
[SourceDate "2018.03.07"]
[SourceVersionDate "2018.03.07"]

{[#]} 1. d4 d6 2. Be3 Nf6 3. Nc3 c6 4. f3 e5 5. Qd2 h5 6. h3 Nbd7 7. O-O-O Be7
8. Rg1 h4 9. Kb1 Nh5 10. Bc4 O-O 11. Ne2 exd4 12. Bxd4 Ne5 13. Bb3 Bf6 14. f4
Ng6 15. g4 hxg3 16. f5 Ne5 17. Nxg3 Nf3 18. Qd3 Nxg3 19. Qxf3 Bxd4 20. Rxd4 Qf6
21. Rxg3 d5 22. Qf2 Re8 23. a4 dxe4 24. Rg6 Qxf5 25. Qg1 Qe5 26. Rxe4 Qxe4 27.
Rxg7+ Kh8 28. Qg5 Bf5 29. Rxf7 1-0 [/pgn]
My belief is that you cannot really judge a sub 2700 human when tactics go out of hand vs a top engine. Certainly not in a rapid tc. U need to analize it later with engine to see if real inroads have been made that can truly outwit material handicaps.

You can't really judge any player, human or engine, by just one or two games, you need a decent sample. One thing I have noticed over the years about handicap play in chess, regardless of whether the players are humans, engines, or one of each, is that for any given pair of opponents there is some handicap that is roughly balanced, and if you raise or lower the handicap by any meaningful amount the benefitting player becomes a big favorite. For example, at five min plus five sec the balanced handicap between Komodo (on my i9) and me is between knight odds and knight plus White odds. If I play at anything less than a knight, such as two Black pawns, knight for pawn, exchange and pawn, pawn (f7) and 3 moves, etc. I almost always lose, but at rook odds I would almost always win. So I think that a player's strength can be measured pretty accurately by handicap play vs. Komodo, provided that he plays enough games under the same conditions as others have been well tested at.
Komodo rules!

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