How does an engine with 0 ELO play ?

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Kotlov
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Re: How does an engine with 0 ELO play ?

Post by Kotlov » Mon Apr 16, 2018 8:21 pm

Ozymandias wrote: A "0 Elo player" may just make as little sense,
"0 Elo player" will have the result 151-849 vs "300 Elo player" and 646-354vs "-100 Elo player".
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Dann Corbit
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Re: How does an engine with 0 ELO play ?

Post by Dann Corbit » Mon Apr 16, 2018 8:43 pm

Kotlov wrote:
Ozymandias wrote: A "0 Elo player" may just make as little sense,
"0 Elo player" will have the result 151-849 vs "300 Elo player" and 646-354vs "-100 Elo player".
Yes, of course, you are right. It is all distance between members with Elo.
My other post is in error, because I imagined that the player could have no gains, but this is not correct.
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Kotlov
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Re: How does an engine with 0 ELO play ?

Post by Kotlov » Mon Apr 16, 2018 9:06 pm

Dann Corbit wrote:
Kotlov wrote:
Ozymandias wrote: A "0 Elo player" may just make as little sense,
"0 Elo player" will have the result 151-849 vs "300 Elo player" and 646-354vs "-100 Elo player".
Yes, of course, you are right. It is all distance between members with Elo.
My other post is in error, because I imagined that the player could have no gains, but this is not correct.
like example

Image

0 Elo - is not Random Mover, is much better (in CCRL paradigm, of course).

If we imagine an elo-rating, where 0 will be the strength of random-mover engine, then the rating of the Stockfish will be over 40000+ (about 1 : 40^60)
Last edited by Kotlov on Mon Apr 16, 2018 9:11 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Ozymandias
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Re: How does an engine with 0 ELO play ?

Post by Ozymandias » Mon Apr 16, 2018 9:06 pm

Kotlov wrote:
Ozymandias wrote: A "0 Elo player" may just make as little sense,
"0 Elo player" will have the result 151-849 vs "300 Elo player" and 646-354vs "-100 Elo player".
You keep using the word "player" in that phrase, as if it had any real meaning when applied to some entities.

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Re: How does an engine with 0 ELO play ?

Post by whereagles » Tue Apr 17, 2018 8:13 am

In LC0 zero ELO is marked as random play, and I agree with the definition because it's absolute. This is similar to the temperature ºK kelvin scale, which is absolute, as opposed to ºC or ºF, which are relative to something.

In this context negative ELO means playing misere and that is a whole different game. I don't think you can't play worst than random without being suicidal, and that requires having some skill, i.e. ELO > 0. Which kind of demonstrates the point as well.

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Re: How does an engine with 0 ELO play ?

Post by whereagles » Tue Apr 17, 2018 8:25 am

Kotlov wrote:If we imagine an elo-rating, where 0 will be the strength of random-mover engine, then the rating of the Stockfish will be over 40000+ (about 1 : 40^60)
Are you sure? LCZero is rated some ~4800 in that scale, which sort of translates to ~2500-2600 fide. SF9 is ~3400 fide, meaning it will be ~6000 in 0 = random.

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Kotlov
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Re: How does an engine with 0 ELO play ?

Post by Kotlov » Tue Apr 17, 2018 12:20 pm

whereagles wrote:Are you sure? LCZero is rated some ~4800 in that scale,
Sure.

If RM = 0 Elo and LCZero = 4800 Elo then RM take 1 point from 10^12 games against LCZero.
LCZero so weak?
No. => 0 Elo is not RM that scale (or 4800 not LCZero)
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Re: How does an engine with 0 ELO play ?

Post by Milos » Tue Apr 17, 2018 12:24 pm

Kotlov wrote:
Ozymandias wrote: A "0 Elo player" may just make as little sense,
"0 Elo player" will have the result 151-849 vs "300 Elo player" and 646-354vs "-100 Elo player".
You could also define 0 Elo as absolute.
It is actually quite simple. Absolute 0 Elo player would have 0 point from any match against anyone.

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Re: How does an engine with 0 ELO play ?

Post by Milos » Tue Apr 17, 2018 12:25 pm

Kotlov wrote:
whereagles wrote:Are you sure? LCZero is rated some ~4800 in that scale,
Sure.

If RM = 0 Elo and LCZero = 4800 Elo then RM take 1 point from 10^12 games against LCZero.
LCZero so weak?
No. => 0 Elo is not RM that scale (or 4800 not LCZero)
RM can never be 0 Elo, because engine playing perfect suicide chess is infinitely weaker than RM in normal chess.

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Re: How does an engine with 0 ELO play ?

Post by Kotlov » Tue Apr 17, 2018 12:35 pm

Milos wrote:RM can never be 0 Elo, because engine playing perfect suicide chess is infinitely weaker than RM in normal chess.
If taken as 0 Elo=RM then "suicide chess players" will be less than 0.
IDK why your not understanding that?
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