Is the Blackmar-Diemar Gambit playable?

Discussion of anything and everything relating to chess playing software and machines.

Moderators: bob, hgm, Harvey Williamson

Forum rules
This textbox is used to restore diagrams posted with the [d] tag before the upgrade.
Dann Corbit
Posts: 10110
Joined: Wed Mar 08, 2006 7:57 pm
Location: Redmond, WA USA
Contact:

Re: Is the Blackmar-Diemar Gambit playable?

Post by Dann Corbit » Thu Jul 05, 2018 11:07 pm

BeyondCritics wrote:
Thu Jul 05, 2018 10:46 pm
mclane wrote:
Thu Jul 05, 2018 7:41 pm
Yes.playable.
What do you play against 5..g6?
This analysis is too shallow for serious use, but Bg5 is suggested at depth 37:

rnbqkb1r/ppp1pp1p/5np1/8/3P4/2N2N2/PPP3PP/R1BQKB1R w KQkq - acd 37; acs 441; bm Bg5; cce -83; ce -54; pm Bg5; pv Bg5 Bg7 Bc4 Nc6 Qd2 O-O O-O-O a6 a3 b5 Bb3 Rb8 Ne5 Nxe5 dxe5 Qxd2+ Rxd2 Ng4 Nd5 Nxe5 Nxe7+ Kh8 Nxc8 Rbxc8 Bf4 Rfe8 Rhd1 c6 Bxe5 Bxe5 Bxf7 Re7 Rd8+ Rxd8 Rxd8+ Kg7 Be8 c5 g3 Re6 c3 Bf6 Rd7+ Kh6 Bf7 Re1+ Kc2 c4 Bd5 Re2+ Kb1 Rxh2 Ra7 Bg5 Rxa6; white_wins 42; black_wins 73; draws 50; Opening Blackmar-Diemer Gambit: Bogoljubow Variation. 1.d4 d5 2.e4 dxe4 3.Nc3 Nf6 4.f3 exf3 5.Nxf3 g6; CaxtonID: 181; ECO: D00;
Taking ideas is not a vice, it is a virtue. We have another word for this. It is called learning.
But sharing ideas is an even greater virtue. We have another word for this. It is called teaching.

jdart
Posts: 3824
Joined: Fri Mar 10, 2006 4:23 am
Location: http://www.arasanchess.org

Re: Is the Blackmar-Diemar Gambit playable?

Post by jdart » Fri Jul 06, 2018 12:07 am

IM Gary Lane has a book on the gambit, with lots of analysis (https://www.amazon.com/Blackmar-Diemer- ... 0713477253).

User avatar
mclane
Posts: 16170
Joined: Thu Mar 09, 2006 5:40 pm
Location: US of Europe, germany
Full name: Thorsten Czub
Contact:

Re: Is the Blackmar-Diemar Gambit playable?

Post by mclane » Fri Jul 06, 2018 6:50 am

A computer software cannot play a gambit.
It has no clue about the sense of a gambit.
It will defend material although the idea is to sac material.

It is not playing chess. It emulates playing chess.
What seems like a fairy tale today may be reality tomorrow.
Here we have a fairy tale of the day after tomorrow....

Uri Blass
Posts: 8586
Joined: Wed Mar 08, 2006 11:37 pm
Location: Tel-Aviv Israel

Re: Is the Blackmar-Diemar Gambit playable?

Post by Uri Blass » Fri Jul 06, 2018 7:07 am

mclane wrote:
Fri Jul 06, 2018 6:50 am
A computer software cannot play a gambit.
It has no clue about the sense of a gambit.
It will defend material although the idea is to sac material.

It is not playing chess. It emulates playing chess.
chess programs also sacrifice material for positional compensation.
Every strong program does it and programs sometimes make wrong sacrifices

After 1.e4 d5 2.exd5 my stockfish suggest 2...Nf6

User avatar
mclane
Posts: 16170
Joined: Thu Mar 09, 2006 5:40 pm
Location: US of Europe, germany
Full name: Thorsten Czub
Contact:

Re: Is the Blackmar-Diemar Gambit playable?

Post by mclane » Fri Jul 06, 2018 10:09 am

how many chess engines (book turned off) you know play d4 d5 c4 ??

of course chess engines do to a certain degree sac for compensation.
but in a gambit, the idea is different. the compensation e.g. in the BDG is much deeper then the chess engines could smell.

its not about compensation for a material win. its about a compensation to mate the opponent.

the BDG is a good example. Kings gambit and queens gambit or englund gambit and budapest gambit
or any other gambit also show that the chess engines fail to emulate chess understanding.

and this behaviour has IMO not changed over long term of computer chess development.

the programs compute deeper and they kill humans. but they do not play better in gambits. its because they have no clue that the target is mating . instead they play for material wins.


lets hope the latest developments in computerchess help to solve this emulation lack.
What seems like a fairy tale today may be reality tomorrow.
Here we have a fairy tale of the day after tomorrow....

F. Bluemers
Posts: 860
Joined: Thu Mar 09, 2006 10:21 pm
Location: Nederland
Contact:

Re: Is the Blackmar-Diemar Gambit playable?

Post by F. Bluemers » Fri Jul 06, 2018 11:05 am

A minor point:
how many chess engines (book turned off) you know play d4 d5 c4 ??
Phalanx has/had special code for these pawnformations.
Best
Fonzy

User avatar
mclane
Posts: 16170
Joined: Thu Mar 09, 2006 5:40 pm
Location: US of Europe, germany
Full name: Thorsten Czub
Contact:

Re: Is the Blackmar-Diemar Gambit playable?

Post by mclane » Fri Jul 06, 2018 1:17 pm

BeyondCritics wrote:
Thu Jul 05, 2018 10:46 pm
mclane wrote:
Thu Jul 05, 2018 7:41 pm
Yes.playable.
What do you play against 5..g6?
6.Bc4
What seems like a fairy tale today may be reality tomorrow.
Here we have a fairy tale of the day after tomorrow....

todd
Posts: 51
Joined: Thu Apr 19, 2018 7:09 pm

Re: Is the Blackmar-Diemar Gambit playable?

Post by todd » Fri Jul 06, 2018 3:37 pm

1. d4 Nf6 2. Nc3 d5 3. e4 Nxe4 is nice if you can get it, but beware - white can play 1. d4 Nf6 2. f3 d5 3. e4 dxe4 4. Nc3 and you've been tricked into the dxe4 variation.

tpoppins
Posts: 919
Joined: Tue Nov 24, 2015 8:11 pm
Location: upstate

Re: Is the Blackmar-Diemar Gambit playable?

Post by tpoppins » Fri Jul 06, 2018 4:17 pm

todd wrote:
Fri Jul 06, 2018 3:37 pm
1. d4 Nf6 2. Nc3 d5 3. e4 Nxe4 is nice if you can get it, but beware - white can play 1. d4 Nf6 2. f3 d5 3. e4 dxe4 4. Nc3 and you've been tricked into the dxe4 variation.
Black doesn't have to play along. Instead of 3...dxe4 he can meet 3.e4 with 3...e5 when 4.dxe5 runs into 4...Nxe4.
Tirsa Poppins
CCRL

Dann Corbit
Posts: 10110
Joined: Wed Mar 08, 2006 7:57 pm
Location: Redmond, WA USA
Contact:

Re: Is the Blackmar-Diemar Gambit playable?

Post by Dann Corbit » Fri Jul 06, 2018 6:13 pm

mclane wrote:
Fri Jul 06, 2018 10:09 am
how many chess engines (book turned off) you know play d4 d5 c4 ??

of course chess engines do to a certain degree sac for compensation.
but in a gambit, the idea is different. the compensation e.g. in the BDG is much deeper then the chess engines could smell.

its not about compensation for a material win. its about a compensation to mate the opponent.

the BDG is a good example. Kings gambit and queens gambit or englund gambit and budapest gambit
or any other gambit also show that the chess engines fail to emulate chess understanding.

and this behaviour has IMO not changed over long term of computer chess development.

the programs compute deeper and they kill humans. but they do not play better in gambits. its because they have no clue that the target is mating . instead they play for material wins.


lets hope the latest developments in computerchess help to solve this emulation lack.
My 64 core machine will play that using Stockfish at 40 moves in two hours.
Taking ideas is not a vice, it is a virtue. We have another word for this. It is called learning.
But sharing ideas is an even greater virtue. We have another word for this. It is called teaching.

Post Reply