Is the Blackmar-Diemar Gambit playable?

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Uri Blass
Posts: 8558
Joined: Wed Mar 08, 2006 11:37 pm
Location: Tel-Aviv Israel

Re: Is the Blackmar-Diemar Gambit playable?

Post by Uri Blass » Sat Jul 07, 2018 12:36 am

mclane wrote:
Fri Jul 06, 2018 10:09 am
how many chess engines (book turned off) you know play d4 d5 c4 ??

of course chess engines do to a certain degree sac for compensation.
but in a gambit, the idea is different. the compensation e.g. in the BDG is much deeper then the chess engines could smell.

its not about compensation for a material win. its about a compensation to mate the opponent.

the BDG is a good example. Kings gambit and queens gambit or englund gambit and budapest gambit
or any other gambit also show that the chess engines fail to emulate chess understanding.

and this behaviour has IMO not changed over long term of computer chess development.

the programs compute deeper and they kill humans. but they do not play better in gambits. its because they have no clue that the target is mating . instead they play for material wins.


lets hope the latest developments in computerchess help to solve this emulation lack.
d4 d5 c4 I believe that a lot of engines.
There are gambits that are not sound that engines do not play and I believe for example that the king gambit is bad against correct play.

Dann Corbit
Posts: 10000
Joined: Wed Mar 08, 2006 7:57 pm
Location: Redmond, WA USA
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Re: Is the Blackmar-Diemar Gambit playable?

Post by Dann Corbit » Sat Jul 07, 2018 1:04 am

Here is a list of gambit positions where the side to move is behind in material due to the gambit being accepted and the first move of the position is not a capture and engines know that the gambit is sound and the side to move is behind by more than a pawn in wood weight. In particular, the Lolli and Muzio gambits toss wood with reckless abandon. The number in brackets is a crude approximation of the wood imbalance:

Code: Select all

white to move, black ahead in material:
[-111]:( 2bqkbnr/r4ppp/p1npp3/1p6/4P3/1BN2N2/PP2QPPP/R1B2RK1 w k - ce 111; bm Be3; Opening ECO:B21; Opening: Sicilian; Variation Smith-Morra gambit, Chicago defence; 1. e4 c5 2. d4 cxd4 3. c3 dxc3 4. Nxc3 Nc6 5. Nf3 d6 6. Bc4 e6 7. O-O a6 8. Qe2 b5 9. Bb3 Ra7 *; )
[-111]:( r1b1k1nr/1pqp1ppp/p1nbp3/8/2B1P3/2N2N2/PP2QPPP/R1B2RK1 w kq - ce 7; bm Rd1; Opening Sicilian Defense: Smith-Morra Gambit. Accepted Larsen Defense 1.e4 c5 2.d4 cxd4 3.c3 dxc3 4.Nxc3 Nc6 5.Nf3 e6 6.Bc4 a6 7.O-O Qc7 8.Qe2 Bd6; CaxtonID: 2272; ECO: B21; )
[-111]:( r1b1k1nr/pp3ppp/n1p1p3/8/1BP1q3/8/PP2BPPP/R2QK1NR w KQkq - ce 36; bm Ba5; Opening ECO:D31z; Semi-Slav: Marshall Gambit, 8.Be2 Na6; 1.d4 d5 2.c4 e6 3.Nc3 c6 4.e4 dxe4 5.Nxe4 Bb4+ 6.Bd2 Qxd4 7.Bxb4 Qxe4+ 8.Be2 Na6 *; )
[-111]:( r1b1k1nr/pppq1ppp/2np4/b7/2BP4/1QP2N2/P4PPP/RNB1K2R w KQkq - ce 88; bm O-O; Opening C52:Evans gambit, Levenfish variation; )
[-111]:( r1b1kbnr/pppp1ppp/2n5/8/2B1Pp1q/8/PPPP2PP/RNBQ1KNR w kq - ce 0; bm Nf3; Opening King's Gambit: Accepted. Bishop's Gambit Boden Variation 1.e4 e5 2.f4 exf4 3.Bc4 Qh4+ 4.Kf1 Nc6; CaxtonID: 1005; ECO: C33; )
[-111]:( r1bqk1nr/ppp2ppp/1bnp4/8/2BPP3/5N2/P4PPP/RNBQ1RK1 w kq - ce 0; bm Nc3; Opening Italian Game: Evans Gambit. Main Line 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bc4 Bc5 4.b4 Bxb4 5.c3 Bc5 6.d4 exd4 7.O-O d6 8.cxd4 Bb6; CaxtonID: 892; ECO: C51; )
[-111]:( r1bqk1nr/ppp2ppp/2n1p3/8/3Pp3/P1N5/1PP2PPP/R1BQKB1R w KQkq - ce 0; bm d5; Opening ECO:C15; Opening: French; Variation Winawer, Alekhine gambit, Kan variation; 1. e4 e6 2. d4 d5 3. Nc3 Bb4 4. Ne2 dxe4 5. a3 Bxc3+ 6. Nxc3 Nc6 *; )
[-111]:( r1bqk1nr/pppp1ppp/2n5/2b1p3/2B1P3/2P2N2/P2P1PPP/RNBQK2R w KQkq - ce 0; bm d4; Opening C51 Italian Game: Evans Gambit, McDonnell Defense; )
[-111]:( r1bqk1nr/pppp1ppp/2n5/2b5/2B1P3/2Pp1N2/PP3PPP/RNBQK2R w KQkq - ce 37; bm b4; Opening ECO:C44z; Scotch Gambit: 5.c3 d3; 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.d4 exd4 4.Bc4 Bc5 5.c3 d3 *; )
[-111]:( r1bqk1nr/pppp1ppp/2n5/2b5/2BpP3/5N2/PPP2PPP/RNBQK2R w KQkq - ce 6; bm c3; Opening Scotch Game: Haxo Gambit. 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.d4 exd4 4.Bc4 Bc5; CaxtonID: 1935; ECO: C45; )
[-111]:( r1bqk1nr/pppp1ppp/2n5/8/1bBpP3/5N2/PPP2PPP/RNBQK2R w KQkq - ce 0; bm c3; Opening Scotch Game: Scotch Gambit. London Defense 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.d4 exd4 4.Bc4 Bb4+; CaxtonID: 1952; ECO: C44; )
[-111]:( r1bqk1nr/pppp1ppp/2nb4/4p3/2B1P3/2P2N2/P2P1PPP/RNBQK2R w KQkq - ce 2; bm d4; Opening Italian Game: Evans Gambit. Stone-Ware Variation 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bc4 Bc5 4.b4 Bxb4 5.c3 Bd6; CaxtonID: 900; ECO: C51; )
[-111]:( r1bqk1nr/ppppbppp/2n5/8/4Pp2/2N2N2/PPPP2PP/R1BQKB1R w KQkq - ce 10; bm Bc4; Opening Vienna Game: Vienna Gambit. Cunningham Defense 1.e4 e5 2.Nc3 Nc6 3.f4 exf4 4.Nf3 Be7; CaxtonID: 2655; ECO: C25; )
[-111]:( r1bqk2r/pp2bppp/2np1n2/4p3/2B1P3/2N2N2/PP2QPPP/R1BR2K1 w kq - ce 0; bm Bb5; Opening ECO:B21; Variation Sicilian: Smith-Morra gambit, Chicago defence (...Nf6); Comment *pwo 2/01; 1. e4 c5 2. d4 cxd4 3. c3 dxc3 4. Nxc3 Nc6 5. Nf3 d6 6. Bc4 e6 7. O-O Nf6 8. Qe2 Be7 9. Rd1 e5 *; )
[-111]:( r1bqk2r/ppp1bppp/2n2n2/3p2B1/2B4Q/2N2N2/PPP2PPP/R3K2R w KQkq - ce 20; bm O-O-O; Opening ECO:C24; Bishop's Opening: Urusov Gambit, Estrin Variation; 1.e4 e5 2.Bc4 Nf6 3.d4 exd4 4.Nf3 Nxe4 5.Qxd4 Nf6 6.Bg5 Be7 7.Nc3 Nc6 8.Qh4 d5 *; )
[-111]:( r1bqk2r/ppp1bppp/2np1n2/6B1/2B4Q/2N2N2/PPP2PPP/R3K2R w KQkq - ce 7; bm O-O-O; Opening ECO:C24; Bishop's Opening: Urusov Gambit, Keres Variation; 1.e4 e5 2.Bc4 Nf6 3.d4 exd4 4.Nf3 Nxe4 5.Qxd4 Nf6 6.Bg5 Be7 7.Nc3 Nc6 8.Qh4 d6 *; )
[-111]:( r1bqk2r/ppp2ppp/2n2n2/2bpP3/2Bp4/2P2N2/PP3PPP/RNBQK2R w KQkq - ce 5; bm Bb5; Opening C53 Italian Game: Classical Variation, Greco Gambit; )
[-111]:( r1bqk2r/ppp2ppp/2n2n2/2bpP3/2Bp4/2P2N2/PP3PPP/RNBQK2R w KQkq d6 ce 0; bm Bb5; Opening Italian Game: Classical Variation. Greco Gambit 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bc4 Bc5 4.c3 Nf6 5.d4 exd4 6.e5 d5; CaxtonID: 870; ECO: C53; )
[-111]:( r1bqk2r/pppp1ppp/2n2n2/2b5/2BpP3/5N2/PPP2PPP/RNBQ1RK1 w kq - ce 23; bm e5; Opening Italian Game: Scotch Gambit. Max Lange Attack 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bc4 Nf6 4.d4 exd4 5.O-O Bc5; CaxtonID: 921; ECO: C55; )
[-111]:( r1bqk2r/pppp1ppp/2n2n2/8/1bB1P3/2N2N2/PP3PPP/R1BQK2R w KQkq - ce 0; bm e5; Opening Scotch Game: Göring Gambit. Bardeleben Variation 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.d4 exd4 4.c3 dxc3 5.Nxc3 Bb4 6.Bc4 Nf6; CaxtonID: 1932; ECO: C44; )
[-111]:( r1bqk2r/pppp1ppp/2n5/2b1P3/2Bp2n1/5N2/PPP2PPP/RNBQ1RK1 w kq - ce 26; bm Bf4; Opening Italian Game: Scotch Gambit. Max Lange Attack Spielmann Defense 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bc4 Nf6 4.d4 exd4 5.O-O Bc5 6.e5 Ng4; CaxtonID: 924; ECO: C56; )
[-111]:( r1bqk2r/ppppbppp/2n2n2/6B1/2BQ4/2N2N2/PPP2PPP/R3K2R w KQkq - ce 10; bm Qh4; Opening ECO:C24; Bishop's Opening: Urusov Gambit, 7...Nc6 Defence; 1.e4 e5 2.Bc4 Nf6 3.d4 exd4 4.Nf3 Nxe4 5.Qxd4 Nf6 6.Bg5 Be7 7.Nc3 Nc6 *; )
[-111]:( r1bqkb1r/pp2pppp/2np4/8/3Pn3/5N2/PP2BPPP/RNBQK2R w KQkq - ce 27; bm d5; Opening B50 Sicilian Defense: Delayed Alapin, Basman-Palatnik Gambit; )
[-111]:( r1bqkb1r/ppp1pppp/2n2n2/8/2pP4/2N2N2/PP2PPPP/R1BQKB1R w KQkq - ce 45; bm e3; Opening Queen's Gambit Refused: Chigorin Defense. Modern Gambit 1.d4 d5 2.c4 Nc6 3.Nc3 Nf6 4.Nf3 dxc4; CaxtonID: 1793; ECO: D06; )
[-111]:( r1bqkb1r/pppp1ppp/2n5/1B2p3/4n3/5N2/PPPP1PPP/RNBQ1RK1 w kq - ce 12; bm Re1; Opening Spanish Game: Berlin Defense. Rio Gambit Accepted 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bb5 Nf6 4.O-O Nxe4; CaxtonID: 2368; ECO: C67; )
[-111]:( r1bqkb1r/pppp1ppp/2n5/4P3/2Bp2n1/5N2/PPP2PPP/RNBQK2R w KQkq - ce 4; bm O-O; Opening Scotch Game: Scotch Gambit. Kingside Variation 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.d4 exd4 4.Bc4 Nf6 5.e5 Ng4; CaxtonID: 1951; ECO: C45; )
[-111]:( r1bqkb1r/ppppp1pp/2n2n2/6B1/3Pp3/2N5/PPP2PPP/R2QKBNR w KQkq - ce 7; bm d5; Opening ECO:A83j; Dutch: Staunton Gambit, 4.Bg5 Nc6; 1.d4 f5 2.e4 fxe4 3.Nc3 Nf6 4.Bg5 Nc6 *; )
[-111]:( r1bqkb1r/ppppp1pp/5n2/3Pn1B1/4p3/2N5/PPP2PPP/R2QKBNR w KQkq - ce 26; bm Qe2; Opening Dutch: Staunton gambit; ECO A83; )
[-111]:( r1bqkbnr/pp1ppp1p/2n3p1/8/4P3/2N2N2/PP3PPP/R1BQKB1R w KQkq - ce 9; bm Bc4; Opening Sicilian Defense: Smith-Morra Gambit. Accepted Fianchetto Defense 1.e4 c5 2.d4 cxd4 3.c3 dxc3 4.Nxc3 Nc6 5.Nf3 g6; CaxtonID: 2270; ECO: B21; )
[-111]:( r1bqkbnr/ppp1pppp/2n5/8/2pPP3/8/PP3PPP/RNBQKBNR w KQkq - ce 33; bm Nf3; Opening Queen's Gambit Accepted: Central Variation. Modern Defense 1.d4 d5 2.c4 dxc4 3.e4 Nc6; CaxtonID: 1635; ECO: D20; )
[-111]:( r1bqkbnr/ppp1pppp/8/3Pn3/4p3/2N5/PPP2PPP/R1BQKBNR w KQkq - ce 39; bm Qd4; Opening Nimzowitsch Defense: Scandinavian Variation. Bogoljubow Variation Nimzowitsch Gambit 1.e4 Nc6 2.d4 d5 3.Nc3 dxe4 4.d5 Ne5; CaxtonID: 1461; ECO: B00; )
[-111]:( r1bqkbnr/pppnpppp/8/8/2pP4/5N2/PP2PPPP/RNBQKB1R w KQkq - ce 57; bm e4; Opening Queen's Gambit Accepted: Godes Variation. 1.d4 d5 2.c4 dxc4 3.Nf3 Nd7; CaxtonID: 1653; ECO: D21; )
[-111]:( r1bqkbnr/pppp1p1p/2n5/4N3/4PppP/8/PPPP2P1/RNBQKB1R w KQkq - ce 0; bm d4; Opening King's Gambit: Accepted. Kieseritsky Gambit Neumann Defense 1.e4 e5 2.f4 exf4 3.Nf3 g5 4.h4 g4 5.Ne5 Nc6; CaxtonID: 1048; ECO: C39; )
[-111]:( r1bqkbnr/pppp1ppp/2n5/4p3/2B1P3/2P2N2/P2P1PPP/RNBQK2R w KQkq - ce 28; bm O-O; Opening ECO:C51; Opening: Evans gambit; Variation Mayet defence; 1. e4 e5 2. Nf3 Nc6 3. Bc4 Bc5 4. b4 Bxb4 5. c3 Bf8 *; )
[-111]:( r1bqkbnr/pppp1ppp/2n5/8/4Pp2/5N2/PPPP2PP/RNBQKB1R w KQkq - ce 19; bm d4; Opening King's Gambit: Accepted. MacLeod Defense 1.e4 e5 2.f4 exf4 3.Nf3 Nc6; CaxtonID: 1060; ECO: C34; )
[-111]:( r2qk1nr/ppp2ppp/1bnp4/8/2BPP1b1/2N2N2/P4PPP/R1BQ1RK1 w kq - ce 19; bm Bb5; Opening ECO:C51; Opening: Evans gambit; 1. e4 e5 2. Nf3 Nc6 3. Bc4 Bc5 4. b4 Bxb4 5. c3 Bc5 6. d4 exd4 7. O-O d6 8. cxd4 Bb6 9. Nc3 Bg4 *; )
[-111]:( r2qk1nr/ppp2ppp/2np4/2b5/2BpP1b1/2P2N2/PP3PPP/RNBQ1RK1 w kq - ce 0; bm Qb3; Opening Scotch Game: Scotch Gambit. Cochrane-Anderssen Variation 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.d4 exd4 4.Bc4 Bc5 5.O-O d6 6.c3 Bg4; CaxtonID: 1949; ECO: C44; )
[-111]:( r2qk1nr/pppb1ppp/2np4/b3p3/2BPP3/2P2N2/P4PPP/RNBQ1RK1 w kq - ce 16; bm Qb3; Opening ECO:C52; Opening: Evans gambit; Variation Sanders-Alapin variation; 1. e4 e5 2. Nf3 Nc6 3. Bc4 Bc5 4. b4 Bxb4 5. c3 Ba5 6. O-O d6 7. d4 Bd7 *; )
[-111]:( rn1qkb1r/pb3p2/2p1pn1p/1p4p1/2pPP3/2N2NB1/PP2BPPP/R2QK2R w KQkq - ce 0; bm h4; Opening ECO:D43n; Semi-Slav: Moscow, 6.Bh4 Gambit, Main Line, 9...Bb7; 1.d4 d5 2.c4 e6 3.Nc3 Nf6 4.Nf3 c6 5.Bg5 h6 6.Bh4 dxc4 7.e4 g5 8.Bg3 b5 9.Be2 Bb7 *; )
[-111]:( rn1qkb1r/ppp1pppp/4bn2/8/2pP4/4PN2/PP3PPP/RNBQKB1R w KQkq - ce 50; bm Nc3; Opening Queen's Gambit Accepted: Winawer Defense. 1.d4 d5 2.c4 dxc4 3.Nf3 Nf6 4.e3 Be6; CaxtonID: 1673; ECO: D25; )
[-111]:( rnb1k1nr/pp2ppbp/2pp2p1/6B1/3PP3/2N2N2/PqPQ1PPP/R3KB1R w KQkq - ce 28; bm Rb1; Opening Modern Defense: Two Knights Variation. Suttles Variation Tal Gambit 1.e4 g6 2.d4 Bg7 3.Nc3 d6 4.Nf3 c6 5.Bg5 Qb6 6.Qd2 Qxb2; CaxtonID: 1323; ECO: B06; )
[-111]:( rnb1k1nr/pp3ppp/2p1p3/8/1BP1q3/8/PP3PPP/R2QKBNR w KQkq - ce 14; bm Be2; Opening Semi-Slav: Marshall gambit; ECO D31; )
[-111]:( rnb1k1nr/pp3ppp/4p3/2B5/2P5/8/PP2BPqP/R2QK1NR w KQkq - ce 31; bm Bf3; Opening Semi-Slav Defense: Marshall Gambit. Tolush Variation 1.d4 d5 2.c4 e6 3.Nc3 c6 4.e4 dxe4 5.Nxe4 Bb4+ 6.Bd2 Qxd4 7.Bxb4 Qxe4+ 8.Be2 c5 9.Bxc5 Qxg2; CaxtonID: 1977; ECO: D31; )
[-111]:( rnb1k1nr/pppp1ppp/8/2b5/2B1Pp1q/8/PPPP2PP/RNBQ1KNR w kq - ce 33; bm d4; Opening King's Gambit: Accepted. Bishop's Gambit Greco Variation 1.e4 e5 2.f4 exf4 3.Bc4 Qh4+ 4.Kf1 Bc5; CaxtonID: 1013; ECO: C33; )
[-111]:( rnb1k2r/pppn1ppp/4p3/3pP1q1/3P4/2N5/PPP2PP1/R2QKBNR w KQkq - ce 24; bm Qd3; Opening French Defense: Alekhine-Chatard Attack. Albin-Chatard Gambit 1.e4 e6 2.d4 d5 3.Nc3 Nf6 4.Bg5 Be7 5.e5 Nfd7 6.h4 Bxg5 7.hxg5 Qxg5; CaxtonID: 599; ECO: C13; )
[-111]:( rnb1k2r/ppppnpbp/8/6p1/2BPPp1q/2N5/PPP3PP/R1BQ1KNR w kq - ce 0; bm g3; Opening ECO:C33; Opening: KGA; Variation bishop's gambit, classical defence; 1. e4 e5 2. f4 exf4 3. Bc4 Qh4+ 4. Kf1 g5 5. Nc3 Bg7 6. d4 Ne7 *; )
[-111]:( rnb1kb1r/ppp2p1p/3p3n/4N3/2BPPppq/8/PPP3PP/RNBQ1K1R w kq - ce 0; bm Nd3; Opening ECO:C37; Opening: KGA; Variation Salvio gambit, Anderssen counter-attack; 1. e4 e5 2. f4 exf4 3. Nf3 g5 4. Bc4 g4 5. Ne5 Qh4+ 6. Kf1 Nh6 7. d4 d6 *; )
[-111]:( rnb1kbnr/p1pp1ppp/8/1p6/2B1Pp1q/8/PPPP2PP/RNBQ1KNR w kq - ce 0; bm Nf3; Opening King's Gambit: Accepted. Bishop's Gambit Bryan Countergambit 1.e4 e5 2.f4 exf4 3.Bc4 Qh4+ 4.Kf1 b5; CaxtonID: 1008; ECO: C33; )
[-111]:( rnb1kbnr/pppp1p1p/8/6p1/2B1Pp1q/8/PPPP2PP/RNBQ1KNR w kq - ce 0; bm Nc3; Opening King's Gambit: Accepted. Bishop's Gambit Lopez Variation 1.e4 e5 2.f4 exf4 3.Bc4 Qh4+ 4.Kf1 g5; CaxtonID: 1016; ECO: C33; )
[-111]:( rnb1kbnr/pppp2pp/8/4N3/2BPp3/8/PPP2PqP/RNBQK2R w KQkq - ce 4; bm Qh5+; Opening Latvian Gambit: Mayet Attack. Poisoned Pawn Variation 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 f5 3.Bc4 fxe4 4.Nxe5 Qg5 5.d4 Qxg2; CaxtonID: 1262; ECO: C40; )
[-111]:( rnb1kbnr/ppppqp1p/8/8/2B1Ppp1/5N2/PPPP2PP/RNBQ1RK1 w kq - ce 64; bm Nc3; Opening ECO:C37; Opening: KGA; Variation Muzio gambit, Kling and Horwitz counter-attack; 1. e4 e5 2. f4 exf4 3. Nf3 g5 4. Bc4 g4 5. O-O Qe7 *; )
[-111]:( rnbqk1nr/ppp2ppp/4p3/8/1b1Pp3/2N5/PPP1NPPP/R1BQKB1R w KQkq - ce 0; bm a3; Opening ECO:C15q; French: Winawer, Alekhine Gambit Accepted; 1.e4 e6 2.d4 d5 3.Nc3 Bb4 4.Ne2 dxe4 *; )
[-111]:( rnbqk1nr/pppp1pbp/8/4N3/4PppP/8/PPPP2P1/RNBQKB1R w KQkq - ce 0; bm d4; Opening King's Gambit: Accepted. Kieseritsky Gambit Paulsen Defense 1.e4 e5 2.f4 exf4 3.Nf3 g5 4.h4 g4 5.Ne5 Bg7; CaxtonID: 1049; ECO: C39; )
[-111]:( rnbqk2r/pp1pbppp/2p2n2/6B1/2BQ4/2N2N2/PPP2PPP/R3K2R w KQkq - ce 0; bm O-O-O; Opening ECO:C24; Bishop's Opening: Urusov Gambit, 7...c6 Defence; 1.e4 e5 2.Bc4 Nf6 3.d4 exd4 4.Nf3 Nxe4 5.Qxd4 Nf6 6.Bg5 Be7 7.Nc3 c6 *; )
[-111]:( rnbqkb1r/1p3ppp/p2ppn2/8/2B1P3/2N2N2/PP3PPP/R1BQ1RK1 w kq - ce 7; bm e5; Opening Sicilian Defense: Smith-Morra Gambit. Accepted Chicago Defense 1.e4 c5 2.d4 cxd4 3.c3 dxc3 4.Nxc3 d6 5.Bc4 e6 6.Nf3 Nf6 7.O-O a6; CaxtonID: 2268; ECO: B21; )
[-111]:( rnbqkb1r/p1p1pppp/1p3n2/8/3P4/2N2N2/PPP3PP/R1BQKB1R w KQkq - ce 49; bm Ne5; Opening Blackmar-Diemer Gambit: Ritter Defense. 1.d4 d5 2.e4 dxe4 3.Nc3 Nf6 4.f3 exf3 5.Nxf3 b6; CaxtonID: 206; ECO: D00; )
[-111]:( rnbqkb1r/p1ppp1pp/1p3n2/6B1/3Pp3/2N5/PPP2PPP/R2QKBNR w KQkq - ce 95; bm f3; Opening ECO:A83; Opening: Dutch; Variation Staunton gambit, Nimzovich variation; 1. d4 f5 2. e4 fxe4 3. Nc3 Nf6 4. Bg5 b6 *; )
[-111]:( rnbqkb1r/p2ppppp/5n2/2pP4/2p5/5N2/PP2PPPP/RNBQKB1R w KQkq - ce 87; bm Nc3; Opening ECO:A57d; Benko Gambit: 4.Nf3 bxc4; 1.d4 Nf6 2.c4 c5 3.d5 b5 4.Nf3 bxc4 *; )
[-111]:( rnbqkb1r/p3pppp/5n2/1ppP4/2p1P3/2N5/PP3PPP/R1BQKBNR w KQkq - ce 70; bm Bf4; Opening Queen's Gambit Accepted: Linares Variation. 1.d4 d5 2.c4 dxc4 3.e4 c5 4.d5 Nf6 5.Nc3 b5; CaxtonID: 1658; ECO: D20; )
[-111]:( rnbqkb1r/pp1pp1pp/2p2n2/6B1/3Pp3/2N5/PPP2PPP/R2QKBNR w KQkq - ce 27; bm f3; Opening Dutch Defense: Staunton Gambit. Chigorin Variation 1.d4 f5 2.e4 fxe4 3.Nc3 Nf6 4.Bg5 c6; CaxtonID: 402; ECO: A83; )
[-111]:( rnbqkb1r/pp3pp1/2p1pn1p/8/2pP3B/2N2N2/PP2PPPP/R2QKB1R w KQkq - ce 0; bm e4; Opening ECO:D43k; Semi-Slav: Moscow, 6.Bh4 Gambit Accepted; 1.d4 d5 2.c4 e6 3.Nc3 Nf6 4.Nf3 c6 5.Bg5 h6 6.Bh4 dxc4 *; )
[-111]:( rnbqkb1r/ppp1ppp1/5n2/7p/3P4/2N2N2/PPP3PP/R1BQKB1R w KQkq - ce 6; bm Bg5; Opening Blackmar-Diemer Gambit: Rook Pawn Defense. 1.d4 d5 2.e4 dxe4 3.Nc3 Nf6 4.f3 exf3 5.Nxf3 h5; CaxtonID: 207; ECO: D00; )
[-111]:( rnbqkb1r/ppp1pppp/5n2/8/2pP4/5N2/PP2PPPP/RNBQKB1R w KQkq - ce 31; bm e3; Opening Queen's Gambit Accepted: Deferred. 1.d4 d5 2.Nf3 Nf6 3.c4 dxc4; CaxtonID: 1649; ECO: D25; )
[-111]:( rnbqkb1r/ppp1pppp/5n2/8/2pPP3/8/PP3PPP/RNBQKBNR w KQkq - ce 9; bm e5; Opening Queen's Gambit Accepted: Central Variation. Alekhine System 1.d4 d5 2.c4 dxc4 3.e4 Nf6; CaxtonID: 1631; ECO: D20; )
[-111]:( rnbqkb1r/pppp1ppp/5n2/8/4Pp2/2N5/PPPP2PP/R1BQKBNR w KQkq - ce 33; bm e5; Opening ECO:C29a; Vienna Gambit: 3...exf4; 1.e4 e5 2.Nc3 Nf6 3.f4 exf4 *; )
[-111]:( rnbqkb1r/ppppnppp/8/8/2B1Pp2/8/PPPP2PP/RNBQK1NR w KQkq - ce 17; bm Nc3; Opening ECO:C33; Opening: KGA; Variation bishop's gambit, Steinitz defence; 1. e4 e5 2. f4 exf4 3. Bc4 Ne7 *; )
[-111]:( rnbqkb1r/ppppnppp/8/8/4Pp2/5N2/PPPP2PP/RNBQKB1R w KQkq - ce 13; bm d4; Opening King's Gambit: Accepted. Bonsch-Osmolovsky Variation 1.e4 e5 2.f4 exf4 3.Nf3 Ne7; CaxtonID: 1021; ECO: C34; )
[-111]:( rnbqkb1r/ppppp1pp/5n2/8/3Pp3/2N5/PPP2PPP/R1BQKBNR w KQkq - ce 0; bm Bg5; Opening ECO:A82; Dutch: Staunton Gambit, 3.Nc3 Nf6; 1.d4 f5 2.e4 fxe4 3.Nc3 Nf6 *; )
[-111]:( rnbqkb1r/ppppp2p/5np1/6B1/3Pp3/2N5/PPP2PPP/R2QKBNR w KQkq - ce 0; bm Bc4; Opening ECO:A83d; Dutch: Staunton Gambit, 4.Bg5 g6; 1.d4 f5 2.e4 fxe4 3.Nc3 Nf6 4.Bg5 g6 *; )
[-111]:( rnbqkbnr/1pp1pppp/p7/8/2pP4/5N2/PP2PPPP/RNBQKB1R w KQkq - ce 5; bm e3; Opening Queen's Gambit Accepted: Alekhine Defense. 1.d4 d5 2.c4 dxc4 3.Nf3 a6; CaxtonID: 1627; ECO: D22; )
[-111]:( rnbqkbnr/2p1pppp/p7/1p6/2pP4/4PN2/PP3PPP/RNBQKB1R w KQkq - ce 18; bm a4; Opening Queen's Gambit Accepted: Alekhine Defense. Haberditz Variation 1.d4 d5 2.c4 dxc4 3.Nf3 a6 4.e3 b5; CaxtonID: 1629; ECO: D22; )
[-111]:( rnbqkbnr/p1p1pppp/8/1p6/2pP4/5N2/PP2PPPP/RNBQKB1R w KQkq - ce 72; bm a4; Opening Queen's Gambit Accepted: Slav Gambit. 1.d4 d5 2.c4 dxc4 3.Nf3 b5; CaxtonID: 1671; ECO: D21; )
[-111]:( rnbqkbnr/p1p1pppp/8/1p6/2pPP3/8/PP3PPP/RNBQKBNR w KQkq - ce 46; bm a4; Opening Queen's Gambit Accepted: Central Variation. Greco Variation 1.d4 d5 2.c4 dxc4 3.e4 b5; CaxtonID: 1632; ECO: D20; )
[-111]:( rnbqkbnr/p3pppp/8/1ppP4/2p1P3/8/PP3PPP/RNBQKBNR w KQkq - ce 146; bm a4; Opening Queen's Gambit Accepted: Central Variation. Rubinstein Defense Yefimov Gambit 1.d4 d5 2.c4 dxc4 3.e4 c5 4.d5 b5; CaxtonID: 1637; ECO: D20; )
[-111]:( rnbqkbnr/pp2pppp/8/2p5/2pP4/5N2/PP2PPPP/RNBQKB1R w KQkq - ce 40; bm e4; Opening Queen's Gambit Accepted: Gunsberg Defense. 1.d4 d5 2.c4 dxc4 3.Nf3 c5; CaxtonID: 1654; ECO: D21; )
[-111]:( rnbqkbnr/pp2pppp/8/2p5/2pPP3/8/PP3PPP/RNBQKBNR w KQkq - ce 39; bm Nf3; Opening Queen's Gambit Accepted: Central Variation. Rubinstein Defense 1.d4 d5 2.c4 dxc4 3.e4 c5; CaxtonID: 1636; ECO: D20; )
[-111]:( rnbqkbnr/pp3ppp/8/2p5/3Pp3/2N5/PP3PPP/R1BQKBNR w KQkq - ce 0; bm Bb5+; Opening ECO:D32l; QGD Tarrasch: Marshall Gambit; 1.d4 d5 2.c4 e6 3.Nc3 c5 4.cxd5 exd5 5.e4 dxe4 *; )
[-111]:( rnbqkbnr/ppp1pppp/8/8/2p5/5N2/PP1PPPPP/RNBQKB1R w KQkq - ce 26; bm e3; Opening Reti Opening: Reti Gambit. 1.Nf3 d5 2.c4 dxc4; CaxtonID: 1850; ECO: A09; )
[-111]:( rnbqkbnr/ppp1pppp/8/8/2pP4/8/PP2PPPP/RNBQKBNR w KQkq - ce 36; bm Nf3; Opening Queen's Gambit Accepted: General. 1.d4 d5 2.c4 dxc4; CaxtonID: 1651; ECO: D20; )
[-111]:( rnbqkbnr/ppp2p1p/8/3pN3/4PppP/8/PPPP2P1/RNBQKB1R w KQkq - ce 0; bm d4; Opening King's Gambit: Accepted. Kieseritsky Gambit Brentano Defense 1.e4 e5 2.f4 exf4 3.Nf3 g5 4.h4 g4 5.Ne5 d5; CaxtonID: 1044; ECO: C39; )
[-111]:( rnbqkbnr/ppp2ppp/4p3/8/2pP4/5N2/PP2PPPP/RNBQKB1R w KQkq - ce 13; bm e3; Opening Queen's Gambit Accepted: Rosenthal Variation. 1.d4 d5 2.c4 dxc4 3.Nf3 e6; CaxtonID: 1668; ECO: D21; )
[-111]:( rnbqkbnr/ppp2ppp/8/4p3/2pPP3/8/PP3PPP/RNBQKBNR w KQkq - ce 21; bm Nf3; Opening Queen's Gambit Accepted: Central Variation. McDonnell Defense 1.d4 d5 2.c4 dxc4 3.e4 e5; CaxtonID: 1634; ECO: D20; )
[-111]:( rnbqkbnr/pppp1p1p/8/6p1/2B1Pp2/8/PPPP2PP/RNBQK1NR w KQkq - ce 12; bm h4; Opening King's Gambit: Accepted. Bishop's Gambit Anderssen Defense 1.e4 e5 2.f4 exf4 3.Bc4 g5; CaxtonID: 1003; ECO: C33; )
[-111]:( rnbqkbnr/pppp1p2/8/4N2p/4PppP/8/PPPP2P1/RNBQKB1R w KQkq - ce 0; bm Bc4; Opening King's Gambit: Accepted. Kieseritsky Gambit Long Whip 1.e4 e5 2.f4 exf4 3.Nf3 g5 4.h4 g4 5.Ne5 h5; CaxtonID: 1047; ECO: C39; )
[-111]:( rnbqkbnr/pppp2pp/8/5p2/2B1Pp2/8/PPPP2PP/RNBQK1NR w KQkq - ce 0; bm Qe2; Opening King's Gambit: Accepted. Bishop's Gambit Gianutio Gambit 1.e4 e5 2.f4 exf4 3.Bc4 f5; CaxtonID: 1012; ECO: C33; )
[-111]:( rnbqkbnr/ppppp1pp/8/8/3P2p1/8/PPP1PP1P/RNBQKBNR w KQkq - ce 0; bm Bg2; Opening ECO:A80b; Dutch: Krejcik Gambit Accepted; 1.d4 f5 2.g4 fxg4 *; )
[-111]:( rnbqkbnr/ppppp1pp/8/8/3Pp3/8/PPP2PPP/RNBQKBNR w KQkq - ce 0; bm Nc3; Opening Dutch Defense: Staunton Gambit. Accepted 1.d4 f5 2.e4 fxe4; CaxtonID: 399; ECO: A82; )
[-222]:( r1bqk1nr/pppp1ppp/2n5/b7/2B1P3/2Pp1N2/P4PPP/RNBQ1RK1 w kq - ce 26; bm Qb3; Opening C52 Italian Game: Evans Gambit, Dufresne Defense; )
[-222]:( r1bqk2r/pppp1ppp/2n2n2/b7/2BpP3/2P2N2/P4PPP/RNBQ1RK1 w kq - ce 0; bm Ba3; Opening C52 Italian Game: Evans Gambit, Anderssen Defense; )
[-222]:( r1bqk2r/ppppnppp/2n5/b7/2BpP3/2P2N2/P4PPP/RNBQ1RK1 w kq - ce 0; bm Ng5; Opening Italian Game: Evans Gambit. Mieses Defense 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bc4 Bc5 4.b4 Bxb4 5.c3 Ba5 6.d4 exd4 7.O-O Nge7; CaxtonID: 893; ECO: C52; )
[-222]:( r1bqkb1r/pppp1ppp/2n5/3N4/3pn3/5N2/PPP2PPP/R1BQKB1R w KQkq - ce 0; bm Bd3; Opening ECO:C47m; Four Knights: Belgrade Gambit, 5...Nxe4; 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Nc3 Nf6 4.d4 exd4 5.Nd5 Nxe4 *; )
[-222]:( r1bqkb1r/pppp1ppp/2n5/8/2Bpn3/5N2/PPP2PPP/RNBQ1RK1 w kq - ce 0; bm Re1; Opening Italian Game: Scotch Gambit. Double Gambit Accepted 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bc4 Nf6 4.d4 exd4 5.O-O Nxe4; CaxtonID: 920; ECO: C56; )
[-222]:( rnb1k1nr/ppp2ppp/4p3/8/1b1qp1Q1/2N5/PPPB1PPP/R3KBNR w KQkq - ce 0; bm Nf3; Opening French Defense: Winawer Variation. Fingerslip Variation Kunin Double Gambit 1.e4 e6 2.d4 d5 3.Nc3 Bb4 4.Bd2 dxe4 5.Qg4 Qxd4; CaxtonID: 714; ECO: C15; )
[-304]:( 1rb1kbnr/pp1p1ppp/3P1qn1/1N6/5P2/8/PPP3PP/R1BQKB1R w KQk - ce 133; bm Be3; Opening Four Knights Game: Halloween Gambit. Plasma Variation 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Nc3 Nf6 4.Nxe5 Nxe5 5.d4 Nc6 6.d5 Ne5 7.f4 Ng6 8.e5 Ng8 9.d6 cxd6 10.exd6 Qf6; CaxtonID: 553; ECO: C46; )
[-333]:( r1b1k1nr/pppp1ppp/2n2q2/b7/2B1P3/1Qp2N2/P4PPP/RNB2RK1 w kq - ce 9; bm Bg5; Opening Evans gambit; ECO C52; )
[-333]:( r1bqk1nr/pppp1ppp/2n5/b7/2B1P3/2p2N2/P4PPP/RNBQ1RK1 w kq - ce 17; bm Qb3; Opening Italian Game: Evans Gambit. Compromised Defense 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bc4 Bc5 4.b4 Bxb4 5.c3 Ba5 6.d4 exd4 7.O-O dxc3; CaxtonID: 884; ECO: C52; )
[-1245]:( rnb2bnr/pppp1k1p/5q2/8/4P3/2N1pQ2/PPP3PP/R4RK1 w - - ce 923; bm Qh5+; Opening King's Gambit: Accepted. Double Muzio Gambit Young Gambit 1.e4 e5 2.f4 exf4 3.Nf3 g5 4.Bc4 g4 5.O-O gxf3 6.Qxf3 Qf6 7.Bxf7+ Kxf7 8.d4 Qxd4+ 9.Be3 Qf6 10.Nc3; CaxtonID: 1030; ECO: C37; )
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mclane
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Re: Is the Blackmar-Diemar Gambit playable?

Post by mclane » Sat Jul 07, 2018 7:14 am

mclane wrote:
Fri Jul 06, 2018 9:19 pm
e.g.

Look in the position after move 8. white has a very cool position for the sacced pawn.
What seems like a fairy tale today may be reality tomorrow.
Here we have a fairy tale of the day after tomorrow....

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reflectionofpower
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Re: Is the Blackmar-Diemar Gambit playable?

Post by reflectionofpower » Sat Jul 07, 2018 9:09 am

Playing any gambit against any human will work well IF you know it better than he does and it works even better if he is unfamiliar with it but against a (C) you'll get your "hiney handed to you on a platter." because they are just more tactical and defensive than people are.

On the Blackmar-Diemar Gambit I have played 288 games verse people and it's about even steven on wins/losses. I stopped playing it because it does not give a huge advantage if the other person is cautious which he should be and just fortifies himself.
"hodie mihi, cras tibi"

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todd
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Re: Is the Blackmar-Diemar Gambit playable?

Post by todd » Sat Jul 07, 2018 2:29 pm

tpoppins wrote:
Fri Jul 06, 2018 4:17 pm
todd wrote:
Fri Jul 06, 2018 3:37 pm
1. d4 Nf6 2. Nc3 d5 3. e4 Nxe4 is nice if you can get it, but beware - white can play 1. d4 Nf6 2. f3 d5 3. e4 dxe4 4. Nc3 and you've been tricked into the dxe4 variation.
Black doesn't have to play along. Instead of 3...dxe4 he can meet 3.e4 with 3...e5 when 4.dxe5 runs into 4...Nxe4.
Yes. A caveat here: you have to be OK with a draw as black if you want to play this because after 1. d4 Nf6 2. f3 d5 3. e4 e5 4. dxe5 Nxe4 5. fxe4 black must give a repetition with Qh4 and Qf4/Qg5/Qh6. This can be inappropriate if you tend to play players lower rated than you (but great if you tend to face higher rated opponents). Or you can have two different approaches depending on who you face.

3...c5 is also a reasonable way to play if you want a complex game with chances for both sides but don't want to accept the pawn sacrifice. White can play e5, f4, and c3 and black is likely to play e6, resulting in a typical French structure.

For those who are neither OK a draw nor like the French, perhaps you should just learn one of the dxe4 lines, since you can't force the Nxe4 line.

BeyondCritics
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Re: Is the Blackmar-Diemar Gambit playable?

Post by BeyondCritics » Sat Jul 07, 2018 2:53 pm

reflectionofpower wrote:
Sat Jul 07, 2018 9:09 am
...

On the Blackmar-Diemar Gambit I have played 288 games verse people and it's about even steven on wins/losses. I stopped playing it because it does not give a huge advantage if the other person is cautious which he should be and just fortifies himself.
What would you play with black against it?
Are there any typical pitfalls for black?

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Re: Is the Blackmar-Diemar Gambit playable?

Post by reflectionofpower » Sun Jul 08, 2018 11:06 pm

BeyondCritics wrote:
Sat Jul 07, 2018 2:53 pm
reflectionofpower wrote:
Sat Jul 07, 2018 9:09 am
...

On the Blackmar-Diemar Gambit I have played 288 games verse people and it's about even steven on wins/losses. I stopped playing it because it does not give a huge advantage if the other person is cautious which he should be and just fortifies himself.
What would you play with black against it?
Are there any typical pitfalls for black?
In understanding a gambit the main theme is not to get caught up in hanging on to the extra pawn/piece and as the other side is way ahead on development you get crushed with the extra pawn in mouth. Just develop your pieces as quickly as possible and don't try to hang onto the pawn and castle your K to safety quickly.
"hodie mihi, cras tibi"

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Re: Is the Blackmar-Diemar Gambit playable?

Post by jefk » Mon Jul 09, 2018 5:11 pm

also analyzed this gambit some time ago, with various engines (Gull sometimes gives intesting moves/lines)/ anyway i still believe in 5...c6! as strongest response..

So i wouldn't play it against a computer (if Stockfish with Black gives -0.6 for White in this position, you are already in trouble). Second probably 5...e6!, 5...g6 is an idea but drawish imho.
jefk

BeyondCritics
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Re: Is the Blackmar-Diemar Gambit playable?

Post by BeyondCritics » Mon Jul 09, 2018 11:24 pm

jefk wrote:
Mon Jul 09, 2018 5:11 pm
also analyzed this gambit some time ago, with various engines (Gull sometimes gives intesting moves/lines)/ anyway i still believe in 5...c6! as strongest response..

So i wouldn't play it against a computer (if Stockfish with Black gives -0.6 for White in this position, you are already in trouble). Second probably 5...e6!, 5...g6 is an idea but drawish imho.
For me it looks currently like the opposite, after 5..g6 black (that means: stockfish) can claim an advantage, but after 5..c6 white gets away with at least some kind of compensation. I will post my personal notes here, clicked together on two afternoons. Feel free to point out doubts. These notes are not meant to be used for correspondence chess. I can confirm, that an analysis up to play 40 is often required but i don't have the cluster to do that on any position. :lol: There is always the danger to run into some attack which is trivial for stockfish, but not so trivial for humans, e.g. the incorrect "Studier Attack" 6.Bc4 Bg7 7.0-0 0-0 8.Qe1


jdart
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Re: Is the Blackmar-Diemar Gambit playable?

Post by jdart » Tue Jul 10, 2018 1:42 am

Lots of games where White gets a kingside attack. But good defense seems to put Black on top.

Some analysis from the Arasan book:


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