how will Leela fare at the WCCC?

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frankp
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Re: how will Leela fare at the WCCC?

Post by frankp » Mon Jul 16, 2018 3:21 pm

Albert Silver wrote:
Mon Jul 16, 2018 1:56 pm
frankp wrote:
Mon Jul 16, 2018 12:19 pm
Allowing the possibility of 'gamesmanship' in a computer tournament is a little perplexing.
Relies on 'good' behaviour', I guess. When money/commercialism is involved, this is probably asking too much of some people.
More than a little perplexing. Leela and operator lost on time through their own setup. There was no power outage, no dizzy spell by the operator, in other words, no mitigating circumstances other than failing to be prepared. The clock is a part of the game. Take ownership of mistakes made, and don't blame the opponent for benefiting from them.
The ultimate failure was failure to prepare - fully agree.

As I said, they did not do anything against the rules, as I understand it.
Do I blame them - no.
I just find it morally reprehensible. The position was drawn, with leela better on material; and had been drawn for some time.


Nevertheless, I find it surprising that a WCCC championship can be decided by human gamesmanship.
(Perhaps WCCC stands for world cyborg chess championship ?).

Werewolf
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Re: how will Leela fare at the WCCC?

Post by Werewolf » Mon Jul 16, 2018 3:28 pm

JJJ wrote:
Mon Jul 16, 2018 2:31 pm
Albert Silver wrote:
Mon Jul 16, 2018 1:56 pm
frankp wrote:
Mon Jul 16, 2018 12:19 pm
Allowing the possibility of 'gamesmanship' in a computer tournament is a little perplexing.
Relies on 'good' behaviour', I guess. When money/commercialism is involved, this is probably asking too much of some people.
More than a little perplexing. Leela and operator lost on time through their own setup. There was no power outage, no dizzy spell by the operator, in other words, no mitigating circumstances other than failing to be prepared. The clock is a part of the game. Take ownership of mistakes made, and don't blame the opponent for benefiting from them.
Sure, but I still think it is not very fair to win like that. Now I won't buy Komodo ever.

This has ruined the WCCC for me. Komodo couldn't win that - if anyone was going to win it'd be Leela.

JJJ
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Re: how will Leela fare at the WCCC?

Post by JJJ » Mon Jul 16, 2018 3:39 pm

I m very surprised the Komodo team refused a draw. To me it is very unfair. Leela is not the favorite here, and even if it was, it would have been unfair.

Now if Komodo win, who's gonna be happy for the team ? Few people and most won't. Game is a draw. First time Leela play, and they refuse draw because the human ( not the program after all , he can insta move ) is low on time. Not fair ! Even if it is not against the rule.

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MikeB
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Re: how will Leela fare at the WCCC?

Post by MikeB » Mon Jul 16, 2018 3:47 pm

JJJ wrote:
Mon Jul 16, 2018 3:39 pm
I m very surprised the Komodo team refused a draw. To me it is very unfair. Leela is not the favorite here, and even if it was, it would have been unfair.

Now if Komodo win, who's gonna be happy for the team ? Few people and most won't. Game is a draw. First time Leela play, and they refuse draw because the human ( not the program after all , he can insta move ) is low on time. Not fair ! Even if it is not against the rule.
I have seen better sportsmanship at the Tour de France with a lot more on the line. The fact that it was a 6 man tb drawn ending , the right thing to do would have been to accept the draw. But the operator was probably under direct orders , so don’t blame him.
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noobpwnftw
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Re: how will Leela fare at the WCCC?

Post by noobpwnftw » Mon Jul 16, 2018 3:59 pm

noobpwnftw wrote:
Fri Jul 13, 2018 6:51 am
If it doesn't win, there must be something unfair. :roll:
QFT :roll:

I think it is draw, do you agree? Yes = fair, no = unfair.
Since I'm weaker so will you let me always play as white? Yes = fair, no = unfair.
Can I has one of your pawns since you are so kind? Yes = fair, no = unfair.

If this keeps going then what's left in sports is to show up and claim moral victory.
Last edited by noobpwnftw on Mon Jul 16, 2018 4:02 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Werewolf
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Re: how will Leela fare at the WCCC?

Post by Werewolf » Mon Jul 16, 2018 4:01 pm

MikeB wrote:
Mon Jul 16, 2018 3:47 pm
JJJ wrote:
Mon Jul 16, 2018 3:39 pm
I m very surprised the Komodo team refused a draw. To me it is very unfair. Leela is not the favorite here, and even if it was, it would have been unfair.

Now if Komodo win, who's gonna be happy for the team ? Few people and most won't. Game is a draw. First time Leela play, and they refuse draw because the human ( not the program after all , he can insta move ) is low on time. Not fair ! Even if it is not against the rule.
I have seen better sportsmanship at the Tour de France with a lot more on the line. The fact that it was a 6 man tb drawn ending , the right thing to do would have been to accept the draw. But the operator was probably under direct orders , so don’t blame him.
It wouldn't be difficult to get this retrospectively changed to a drawn result. That would be the gracious thing to do.

frankp
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Re: how will Leela fare at the WCCC?

Post by frankp » Mon Jul 16, 2018 4:41 pm

noobpwnftw wrote:
Mon Jul 16, 2018 3:59 pm
noobpwnftw wrote:
Fri Jul 13, 2018 6:51 am
If it doesn't win, there must be something unfair. :roll:
QFT :roll:

I think it is draw, do you agree? Yes = fair, no = unfair.
Since I'm weaker so will you let me always play as white? Yes = fair, no = unfair.
Can I has one of your pawns since you are so kind? Yes = fair, no = unfair.

If this keeps going then what's left in sports is to show up and claim moral victory.
The additional element here, for me, is that human gamesmanship can affect the outcome (actually change the outcome) of a computer versus computer game, particularly when the game was clearly drawn and had been for many moves.

If I buy the WCCC program, I would like to know it was deserved on the basis of the chess it played and not how fast its operator could move - in a drawn position. (This comment is not about what the komodo operator did - refused a draw to win on time - btw.).

noobpwnftw
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Re: how will Leela fare at the WCCC?

Post by noobpwnftw » Mon Jul 16, 2018 4:54 pm

JJJ wrote:
Mon Jul 16, 2018 3:39 pm
I m very surprised the Komodo team refused a draw. To me it is very unfair. Leela is not the favorite here, and even if it was, it would have been unfair.

Now if Komodo win, who's gonna be happy for the team ? Few people and most won't. Game is a draw. First time Leela play, and they refuse draw because the human ( not the program after all , he can insta move ) is low on time. Not fair ! Even if it is not against the rule.
The thing is that the rules were clearly stated and not biased against any participants. In fact the very reason for the high expectations for Leela is it gives more freedom on the hardware.

It is interesting that engines don't fight over a cable but teams meet in person and play on a real chessboard, which is part of the spirit.
There can be human errors like misplacing a piece or even unable to participate due to various reasons, which is also a part of the drama.

If people can't accept the fact that shit happened and not in their favor, then it's no better than withdrawing into a moral victory.


EDIT: Wrong quote, sorry. See below.
Last edited by noobpwnftw on Mon Jul 16, 2018 5:04 pm, edited 1 time in total.

frankp
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Re: how will Leela fare at the WCCC?

Post by frankp » Mon Jul 16, 2018 4:58 pm

noobpwnftw wrote:
Mon Jul 16, 2018 4:54 pm
frankp wrote:
Mon Jul 16, 2018 4:41 pm

The additional element here, for me, is that human gamesmanship can affect the outcome (actually change the outcome) of a computer versus computer game, particularly when the game was clearly drawn and had been for many moves.

If I buy the WCCC program, I would like to know it was deserved on the basis of the chess it played and not how fast its operator could move - in a drawn position. (This comment is not about what the komodo operator did - refused a draw to win on time - btw.).
The thing is that the rules were clearly stated and not biased against any participants. In fact the very reason for the high expectations for Leela is it gives more freedom on the hardware.

It is interesting that engines don't fight over a cable but teams meet in person and play on a real chessboard, which is part of the spirit.
There can be human errors like misplacing a piece or even unable to participate due to various reasons, which is also a part of the drama.

If people can't accept the fact that shit happened and not in their favor, then it's no better than withdrawing into a moral victory.
Did you quote the wrong post ?

jdart
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Re: how will Leela fare at the WCCC?

Post by jdart » Mon Jul 16, 2018 4:59 pm

Loss on time happens in human tournaments all the time. Even GMs have been known to lose on time. It is part of the game.

--Jon

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