On Tempo

[hgm]

The point is that eng-eng matches cannot tell you what the problem is, but only tell you whether a randomly picked eval term ameliorates the situation a bit. The chances that a term, no matter how non-sensical, has no effect at all are pretty slim, so you can always tune its weight to give some improvement. But that doesn't mean you couldn't have gotten a much larger improvement by addressing the real problem.

That is not a matter of experience, but an intrinsic limitation of the method.

[Rebel]

The point is that eng-eng matches cannot tell you what the problem is, but only tell you whether a randomly picked eval term ameliorates the situation a bit. The chances that a term, no matter how non-sensical, has no effect at all are pretty slim, so you can always tune its weight to give some improvement. But that doesn't mean you couldn't have gotten a much larger improvement by addressing the real problem.

That is not a matter of experience, but an intrinsic limitation of the method.

What problem? There isn't one.

What "randomly picked eval term"? There ain't.

Seems to me we have some miscommunication going on.

[chrisw]

The point is that eng-eng matches cannot tell you what the problem is, but only tell you whether a randomly picked eval term ameliorates the situation a bit. The chances that a term, no matter how non-sensical, has no effect at all are pretty slim, so you can always tune its weight to give some improvement. But that doesn't mean you couldn't have gotten a much larger improvement by addressing the real problem.

That is not a matter of experience, but an intrinsic limitation of the method.

What is this real problem that can be addressed? Problem and means of addressing, please.

[hgm]

Apparently the symptom is wasting tempos by multiple moving of the Queen. This is indicative of too little scoring of other goals that could have been achieved in the wasted turns. If it is not obvious from watching the games what these goals are, you could take statistics from positions were multiple Queen moving occurs, of what other engines suggest. And then experiment with eval terms that award the alternative goals.

Just penalizing Queen moves because it helps a bit seems to have a lot of disadvantage, to me. The Queen is a very mobile piece, capable of making all kinds of 'collateral threats' on the way to its ultimate goal, which have to be addressed. So multiple moving of the Queen is often not a waste of a tempo at all. (Compare the Shogi proverb "A Tokin is faster than you think".) The described method would penalize it nevertheless, which should be sub-optimal.

The symptom could also be the consequence of a search problem, in particular the lack of a delayed-loss bonus, so that it makes no attempt to embark on the path towards a local eval maximum that is well within the horizon.

[Rebel]

Apparently the symptom is wasting tempos by multiple moving of the Queen.

If a whatever engine change produces elo then that is a good change for that particular engine.

I can not put it more simple.

[Ras]

If a whatever engine change produces elo then that is a good change for that particular engine.

Nobody denied that hiding a bug can give better play. The argument on the table is that fixing it would be even better.

[hgm]

If a whatever engine change produces elo then that is a good change for that particular engine.

I can not put it more simple.

You could also not put it more wrong...

There are changes through which you paint yourself into a corner, which initially help a bit, and after that enormously hamper further progress.

[Rebel]

You could also not put it more wrong... There are changes through which you paint yourself into a corner, which initially help a bit, and after that enormously hamper further progress.

Nobody denied that hiding a bug can give better play. The argument on the table is that fixing it would be even better.

You are both ridiculous bordering to insulting, so here is my last word, the idea to penalize King and Queen moves a little bit more than other moves in the middle game isn't even mine, it comes from a respectable name in computer chess you both can not stand in his shadow. The idea you guys want to attack him also is so repulsive I won't mention his name.

And now you 2 gents may say whatever you want.

[chrisw]

You could also not put it more wrong... There are changes through which you paint yourself into a corner, which initially help a bit, and after that enormously hamper further progress.

Nobody denied that hiding a bug can give better play. The argument on the table is that fixing it would be even better.

You are both ridiculous bordering to insulting, so here is my last word, the idea to penalize King and Queen moves a little bit more than other moves in the middle game isn't even mine, it comes from a respectable name in computer chess you both can not stand in his shadow. The idea you guys want to attack him also is so repulsive I won't mention his name.

And now you 2 gents may say whatever you want.

Weird it is that you opened with an informative post on your program development. In quite a social way too. My advice is treat comp chess dysfunctionality as a source of amusement mostly. Never take anything personally and keep always in mind when personally attacked that the attacker is almost always describing himself.

[hgm]

I only see one personal attack here, though...

And a troll trying to put oil on the fire, without contributing a single word to the technical discussion.