Testposition

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Spliffjiffer
Posts: 416
Joined: Thu Aug 02, 2012 7:48 pm
Location: Germany

Testposition

Post by Spliffjiffer »

Hello dear chessfriends here on TalkChess.
After i follow this Forum since many years already i am very glad to be here as a new registered user to post and respond here from now on from time to time.
I come from Germany and like to greet all chessinterested people all over the world who love this game as i do.
As this is my first new post regretfully i dont know how to put diagrams in here.
Any help (if needed, maybe my try will work) would be appreciated.
Thanks in advance.

So here is the first part of a game played by Mikhail Golubev with the black pieces against a young very aggressiv playing IM (unfortunately i dont know his name anymore, sth like starostits or so):

IM ??? vs GM Mikhail Golubev
1.e4 c5 2.Nc3 Nc6 3.g3 g6 4.Bg2 Bg7 5.d3 d6 6. f4 Rb8 7.a4 e5 8.Nh3 Nge7 9.0-0 0-0 10.f5 gf 11.ef f6 12.g4 Kh8 13.Qe1 Nd4 14.Qh4 Nxc2 15. Be4 Nxa1 16.g5

[D]1rbq1r1k/pp2n1bp/3p1p2/2p1pPP1/P3B2Q/2NP3N/1P5P/n1B2RK1 b - - 0 16

The position is very dangerous for black and moves suggested by engines at that time(early 2000 i think) ended in a desaster or a draw for black.
eg 16...Qd7 17.Nd5 Ng8 18.g6 h6 19.Nf2! Nb3 20.Be3 b5 21.Ng4 Bb7 22.Nxh6 and white wins
or 16...Ng8 17.g6 h6 18.Nf2 Nb3 19.Be3 Bxf5 looks drawish
Golubev played the 15.Be4-like
16...Be6!! with a good advantage and won the game later on.

So...is 16...Be6!! not only the best but maybe also the only move that wins? or maybe 16...Bxf5 also wins?

Have fun :lol:
Wahrheiten sind Illusionen von denen wir aber vergessen haben dass sie welche sind.
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JuLieN
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Joined: Mon May 05, 2008 12:16 pm
Location: Bordeaux (France)
Full name: Julien Marcel

Re: Testposition

Post by JuLieN »

Hello Peer! :)

Welcome to the forum! It's (sadly) not often that newcomers start with introducing themselves, so it's twice as nice when some, like you, do! ;) :D
"The only good bug is a dead bug." (Don Dailey)
[Blog: http://tinyurl.com/predateur ] [Facebook: http://tinyurl.com/fbpredateur ] [MacEngines: http://tinyurl.com/macengines ]
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Houdini
Posts: 1471
Joined: Tue Mar 16, 2010 12:00 am

Re: Testposition

Post by Houdini »

[D]1rbq1r1k/pp2n1bp/3p1p2/2p1pPP1/P3B2Q/2NP3N/1P5P/n1B2RK1 b - - 0 16
Welcome to the forum!
A very difficult position, it takes quite a while before Qd7 drops off the charts and Be6 is preferred.
Analysis with 3 cores (Core i5-750) and 4096 MB of hash.

Code: Select all

Engine: Houdini DEV 3T (4096 MB)
by Robert Houdart

16/42  0:01   -3.48    1...Qd7 2.Nd5 Ng8 3.g6 h6 4.Bxh6 Bxh6 
                       5.Rxa1 Qg7 6.Nf2 Bd7 7.Ng4 Bc6 8.b3 Rbd8 
                       9.Rf1 Ra8 10.Nde3 Rae8 11.Kg2 Rb8 
                       12.Bd5 Rfe8 13.Rc1 Bxd5+ 14.Nxd5 (4.758.825) 4730 

17/42  0:01   -3.48    1...Qd7 2.Nd5 Ng8 3.g6 h6 4.Bxh6 Bxh6 
                       5.Rxa1 Qg7 6.Nf2 Bd7 7.Ng4 Bc6 8.b3 Rbd8 
                       9.Rf1 Ra8 10.Nde3 Rae8 11.Kg2 Rb8 
                       12.Bd5 Rfe8 13.Rc1 Bxd5+ 14.Nxd5 (6.252.129) 4865 

18/43  0:02   -3.34--  1...Qd7 2.Nd5 (10.274.877) 4999 

18/43  0:02   -3.03--  1...Qd7 2.Nd5 (13.505.786) 4865 

18/54  0:04   -2.25--  1...Qd7 2.Nd5 (23.178.255) 4930 

18/57  0:06   -2.27    1...Qd7 2.Nd5 Ng8 3.Ndf4 exf4 4.Nxf4 Ne7 
                       5.Ne6 fxg5 6.Bxg5 Rxf5 7.Bxe7 Qxe6 
                       8.Rxf5 Qxf5 9.Bxf5 Bxf5 10.Bf6 Rg8 
                       11.Bxg7+ Rxg7+ 12.Kf2 Rf7 13.Qd8+ Kg7 
                       14.Qxd6 Nb3 (35.285.820) 5077 

19/57  0:08   -2.15--  1...Qd7 2.Nd5 (45.183.137) 5135 

19/57  0:11   -1.92--  1...Qd7 2.Nd5 (59.257.852) 5174 

19/57  0:13   -1.93    1...Qd7 2.Nd5 Ng8 3.Ndf4 exf4 4.Nxf4 Ne7 
                       5.Ne6 fxg5 6.Bxg5 Rxf5 7.Bxe7 Qxe6 
                       8.Rxf5 Qxf5 9.Bxf5 Bxf5 10.Bf6 Rg8 
                       11.Bxg7+ Rxg7+ 12.Kf2 Be6 13.Qf6 Bg8 
                       14.Qxd6 Nb3 (70.045.938) 5190 

20/58  0:16   -1.81--  1...Qd7 2.Nd5 (84.822.844) 5231 

20/58  0:20   -1.58--  1...Qd7 2.Nd5 (108.916.241) 5260 

20/59  0:24   -1.61    1...Qd7 2.Nd5 Ng8 3.Ndf4 exf4 4.Nxf4 Bh6 
                       5.gxh6 Ne7 6.Ne6 Rf7 7.Qh5 Qe8 8.Ng7 Qg8 
                       9.Bf4 Nb3 10.Bxd6 Ra8 11.Rf2 a5 
                       12.Rg2 Ra6 13.Ne6 Rxd6 14.Rxg8+ Kxg8 (128.852.256) 5281 

21/59  0:25   -1.73++  1...Qd7 (134.804.770) 5308 

21/59  0:25   -1.96++  1...Qd7 (138.361.989) 5324 

21/59  0:27   -2.48++  1...Qd7 (148.068.031) 5356 

21/65  0:33   -1.49--  1...Qd7 2.Nd5 (178.430.699) 5365 

21/75  0:47   -2.60    1...Qd7 2.Nd5 Ng8 3.Ndf4 exf4 4.Nxf4 Bh6 
                       5.gxh6 Ne7 6.Ne6 Rf7 7.Bf4 Nc2 8.Qh5 Nc6 
                       9.Rf2 N2b4 10.Bxd6 Qxd6 11.Qxf7 Qe7 
                       12.Qxe7 Nxe7 13.Nxc5 Ng8 14.b3 Nxh6 (256.536.556) 5407 

22/75  0:55   -2.48--  1...Qd7 2.Nd5 (303.389.450) 5421 

22/75  1:00   -2.23--  1...Qd7 2.Nd5 (330.059.471) 5428 

22/75  1:07   -2.29    1...Qd7 2.Nd5 Ng8 3.Ndf4 exf4 4.Nxf4 Bh6 
                       5.gxh6 Ne7 6.Ne6 Rf7 7.b4 Nc2 8.Bb2 Ng8 
                       9.Rf2 Nd4 10.Nxd4 cxd4 11.Bd5 b6 
                       12.Bxd4 Bb7 13.Bxf7 Qxf7 14.Re2 Bd5 (368.701.302) 5439 

23/75  1:15   -2.29    1...Qd7 2.Nd5 Ng8 3.Ndf4 exf4 4.Nxf4 Bh6 
                       5.gxh6 Ne7 6.Ne6 Rf7 7.b4 Nc2 8.Bb2 Ng8 
                       9.Rf2 Nd4 10.Nxd4 cxd4 11.Bd5 b6 
                       12.Bxd4 Bb7 13.Bxf7 Qxf7 14.Re2 Bd5 (411.345.014) 5480 

24/75  1:27   -2.41++  1...Qd7 (487.644.434) 5544 

24/75  1:35   -2.64++  1...Qd7 (533.682.030) 5592 

24/75  1:47   -2.52    1...Qd7 2.Nd5 Ng8 3.Ndf4 exf4 4.Nxf4 Bh6 
                       5.gxh6 Ne7 6.Ne6 Rf7 7.b4 Nc2 8.Bb2 Ng8 
                       9.Rf2 Nd4 10.Nxd4 cxd4 11.Bd5 b6 
                       12.Bxd4 Bb7 13.Bxf7 Qxf7 14.Re2 Bd5 (603.584.195) 5603 

25/75  2:16   -2.52    1...Qd7 2.Nd5 Ng8 3.Ndf4 exf4 4.Nxf4 Bh6 
                       5.gxh6 Ne7 6.Ne6 Rf7 7.b4 Nc2 8.Bb2 Ng8 
                       9.Rf2 Nd4 10.Nxd4 cxd4 11.Bd5 b6 
                       12.Bxd4 Bb7 13.Bxf7 Qxf7 14.Re2 Bd5 (773.553.018) 5660 

26/81  3:29   -2.41--  1...Qd7 2.Nd5 (1.184.406.227) 5657 

26/81  4:35   -2.18--  1...Qd7 2.Nd5 (1.555.048.627) 5650 

26/81  6:41   -1.65--  1...Qd7 2.Nd5 (2.257.421.418) 5626 

26/85  13:09  -1.23    1...Qd7 2.Nd5 Ng8 3.Ndf4 exf4 4.Nxf4 Bh6 
                       5.gxh6 Ne7 6.Ne6 Rf7 7.b4 Nc2 8.Bb2 Ng8 
                       9.bxc5 d5 10.Bf3 Qe7 11.Qg3 Bxe6 
                       12.fxe6 Rff8 13.Bxd5 Rbc8 14.Bb3 Nb4 (4.528.378.256) 5732 

27/85  18:33  -1.12--  1...Qd7 2.Nd5 (6.345.273.170) 5696 

27/85  24:53  -0.92--  1...Qd7 2.Nd5 (8.433.930.014) 5647 

27/85  33:21  -1.33++  1...Be6 (11.528.619.467) 5760 

27/85  35:48  -1.41    1...Be6 2.fxe6 f5 3.g6 Nxg6 4.Qxd8 Rbxd8 
                       5.Bxf5 Nb3 6.Bg5 Rde8 7.Nb5 Rxf5 
                       8.Rxf5 h6 9.Nxd6 Rxe6 10.Nf7+ Kg8 
                       11.Nxh6+ Bxh6 12.Bxh6 Nd4 13.Rf2 Ra6 
                       14.Rg2 Kh7 (12.462.228.118) 5799 

28/85  38:45  -1.41    1...Be6 2.fxe6 f5 3.g6 Nxg6 4.Qxd8 Rbxd8 
                       5.Bxf5 Nb3 6.Bg5 Rde8 7.Nb5 Rxf5 
                       8.Rxf5 h6 9.Nxd6 Rxe6 10.Nf7+ Kg8 
                       11.Nxh6+ Bxh6 12.Bxh6 Nd4 13.Rf2 Ra6 
                       14.Rg2 Kh7 (13.582.071.590) 5840
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zullil
Posts: 6442
Joined: Tue Jan 09, 2007 12:31 am
Location: PA USA
Full name: Louis Zulli

Re: Testposition

Post by zullil »

Houdini wrote:[D]1rbq1r1k/pp2n1bp/3p1p2/2p1pPP1/P3B2Q/2NP3N/1P5P/n1B2RK1 b - - 0 16
Welcome to the forum!
A very difficult position, it takes quite a while before Qd7 drops off the charts and Be6 is preferred.
Analysis with 3 cores (Core i5-750) and 4096 MB of hash.

Code: Select all

Engine: Houdini DEV 3T (4096 MB)
by Robert Houdart

16/42  0:01   -3.48    1...Qd7 2.Nd5 Ng8 3.g6 h6 4.Bxh6 Bxh6 
                       5.Rxa1 Qg7 6.Nf2 Bd7 7.Ng4 Bc6 8.b3 Rbd8 
                       9.Rf1 Ra8 10.Nde3 Rae8 11.Kg2 Rb8 
                       12.Bd5 Rfe8 13.Rc1 Bxd5+ 14.Nxd5 (4.758.825) 4730 


27/85  24:53  -0.92--  1...Qd7 2.Nd5 (8.433.930.014) 5647 

27/85  33:21  -1.33++  1...Be6 (11.528.619.467) 5760 

27/85  35:48  -1.41    1...Be6 2.fxe6 f5 3.g6 Nxg6 4.Qxd8 Rbxd8 
                       5.Bxf5 Nb3 6.Bg5 Rde8 7.Nb5 Rxf5 
                       8.Rxf5 h6 9.Nxd6 Rxe6 10.Nf7+ Kg8 
                       11.Nxh6+ Bxh6 12.Bxh6 Nd4 13.Rf2 Ra6 
                       14.Rg2 Kh7 (12.462.228.118) 5799 

28/85  38:45  -1.41    1...Be6 2.fxe6 f5 3.g6 Nxg6 4.Qxd8 Rbxd8 
                       5.Bxf5 Nb3 6.Bg5 Rde8 7.Nb5 Rxf5 
                       8.Rxf5 h6 9.Nxd6 Rxe6 10.Nf7+ Kg8 
                       11.Nxh6+ Bxh6 12.Bxh6 Nd4 13.Rf2 Ra6 
                       14.Rg2 Kh7 (13.582.071.590) 5840
Yes, a hard position. Critter-1.6a (8 threads, 4GB hash):

Code: Select all

24/62  06:20    3589M   9428K  +1.42 Qd7 Nd5 Ng8 Ndf4 exf4 Nxf4 Bh6 gxh6 Ne7 Ne6 Rf7 Bf4 Nb3 Qh5 Qe8 Ng7 Qg8 Bxd6 Ra8 Rf2 Bxf5 Bxf5 Nxf5 Qxf5 Rd8 Bg3 b6 Bh4 Nd4 Qe4 f5 Qe5 Nc6 Qe6 Rd4 Bf6 Rg4+ Rg2 Rxg2+ Kxg2 Nb4 Qxf5 Nxd3
25/62- 12:30    7270M   9687K  +1.33 Qd7 Nd5 Ng8 Ndf4 exf4 Nxf4 Bh6 gxh6 Ne7 Ne6 Rf7 Bf4 Nb3 Qh5 Qe8 Ng7 Qg8 Bxd6 Ra8 Rf2 Bxf5 Bxf5 Nxf5 Qxf5 Rd8 Bg3 b6 Bh4 Nd4 Qe4 f5 Qe5 Nc6 Qe6 Rd4 Bf6 Rg4+ Rg2 Rxg2+ Kxg2 Nb4 Qxf5 Nxd3
25/62- 24:38   14509M   9815K  +1.21 Qd7 Nd5 Ng8 Ndf4 exf4 Nxf4 Bh6 gxh6 Ne7 Ne6 Rf7 Bf4 Nb3 Qh5 Qe8 Ng7 Qg8 Bxd6 Ra8 Rf2 Bxf5 Bxf5 Nxf5 Qxf5 Rd8 Bg3 b6 Bh4 Nd4 Qe4 f5 Qe5 Nc6 Qe6 Rd4 Bf6 Rg4+ Rg2 Rxg2+ Kxg2 Nb4 Qxf5 Nxd3
25/62  41:51   25397M  10114K  +1.08 Be6 fxe6 f5 g6 Nxg6 Qxd8 Rbxd8 Bxf5 Nb3 Bg5 Rde8 Nb5 Rxf5 Rxf5 h6 Nxd6 Rxe6 Nf7+ Kg8 Nxh6+ Bxh6 Bxh6 Nd4 Rf2 Ra6 Rg2 Kh7 Be3 Rxa4 Ng5+ Kg7 Ne4 Ra1+ Kf2 Rb1 Nxc5 Rxb2+ Kf1 Rxg2 Kxg2 b6 Bxd4 exd4 Ne6+ Kf6 Nxd4 Nf4+ Kf3 Nxd3 h4 a5 Ke4 Nc5+ Kd5 a4 h5
26/62  48:08   29308M  10146K  +1.08 Be6 fxe6 f5 g6 Nxg6 Qxd8 Rbxd8 Bxf5 Nb3 Bg5 Rde8 Nb5 Rxf5 Rxf5 h6 Nxd6 Rxe6 Nf7+ Kg8 Nxh6+ Bxh6 Bxh6 Nd4 Rf2 Ra6 Rg2 Kh7 Be3 Rxa4 Ng5+ Kg7 Ne4 Ra1+ Kf2 Rb1 Nxc5 Rxb2+ Kf1 Rxg2 Kxg2 b6 Bxd4 exd4 Ne6+ Kf6 Nxd4 Nf4+ Kf3 Nxd3 h4 a5 Ke4 Nc5+ Kd5 a4 h5
27/62  63:01   38949M  10301K  +1.01 Be6 fxe6 f5 g6 Nxg6 Qxd8 Rbxd8 Bxf5 Nb3 Bg5 Rde8 Nb5 Rxf5 Rxf5 h6 Nc7 Rc8 Rf7 e4 dxe4 Bd4+ Kg2 hxg5 e7 Kg8 Nxg5 Nxe7 Rxe7 Bf6 Nd5 Bxg5 Rxb7 Nd2 Rxa7 Rb8 e5 dxe5
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jdart
Posts: 4366
Joined: Fri Mar 10, 2006 5:23 am
Location: http://www.arasanchess.org

Re: Testposition

Post by jdart »

Spliffjiffer wrote: So here is the first part of a game played by Mikhail Golubev with the black pieces against a young very aggressiv playing IM (unfortunately i dont know his name anymore, sth like starostits or so)
I assume this is Illmars Starostits, but I can't find a Starostits-Golubev game in any of my databases (or the position you posted).

--Jon
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Dan Astrachan
Posts: 134
Joined: Fri May 28, 2010 11:07 am

Re: Testposition

Post by Dan Astrachan »

IvanHoe999946h, 4-Gb hash:

Code: Select all

 31	5:32:59	181 961 875 571	9 107 000	+1,30	Bc8-e6 f5xe6 f6-f5 g5-g6 Ne7xg6 Qh4xd8 Rb8xd8 Be4xf5 Na1-b3 Bc1-g5 Rd8-e8 Nc3-b5 Rf8xf5 Rf1xf5 h7-h6 Nb5-c7 Re8-c8 Rf5-f7 e5-e4 d3xe4 h6xg5 Nh3xg5 Bg7-d4+ Kg1-g2 Bd4-e3 e6-e7 Ng6xe7 Ng5-e6 Ne7-g6 Nc7-d5 Be3-d4 Rf7xb7 c5-c4 Ne6xd4 Nb3xd4 Nd5-f6 Ng6-f8 a4-a5 Rc8-a8 a5-a6 Nd4-e6 Kg2-g3 Ne6-c5 Rb7-c7 Nc5xa6 Rc7xc4 Kh8-g7 Rc4-c6 Kg7xf6 Rc6xd6+ Kf6-e5 Rd6xa6 Nf8-d7 h2-h4 Nd7-c5 Ra6-a5
Posiion reached after this variation, Black to play:

[D] r7/p7/8/R1n1k3/4P2P/6K1/1P6/8 b - - 2 44

Looks drawish to my patzer's eyes.
Computer used: Intel Core i7 875K @ 2.93GH, 4 cores, 12 Gb of RAM
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Spliffjiffer
Posts: 416
Joined: Thu Aug 02, 2012 7:48 pm
Location: Germany

Re: Testposition

Post by Spliffjiffer »

Thank You for your quick responses.

Sadly i coulnt really improve the line given by Dan:


5:32:59 181 961 875 571 9 107 000 +1,30 Bc8-e6 f5xe6 f6-f5 g5-g6 Ne7xg6 Qh4xd8 Rb8xd8 Be4xf5 Na1-b3 Bc1-g5 Rd8-e8 Nc3-b5 Rf8xf5 Rf1xf5 h7-h6 Nb5-c7 Re8-c8 Rf5-f7 e5-e4 d3xe4 h6xg5 Nh3xg5 Bg7-d4+ Kg1-g2 Bd4-e3 e6-e7 Ng6xe7 Ng5-e6 Ne7-g6 Nc7-d5 Be3-d4 Rf7xb7 c5-c4 Ne6xd4 Nb3xd4 Nd5-f6 Ng6-f8 a4-a5 Rc8-a8 a5-a6 Nd4-e6 Kg2-g3 Ne6-c5 Rb7-c7 Nc5xa6 Rc7xc4 Kh8-g7 Rc4-c6 Kg7xf6 Rc6xd6+ Kf6-e5 Rd6xa6 Nf8-d7 h2-h4 Nd7-c5 Ra6-a5


all attempts ended in drawish endpositions.
Of course 35...Ra8 looks not good but i couldnt find anything convincing.
I also tried 31..Re8 (instead of 31...Bd4) but couldnt find anything.
Well...i couldnt make that deep computeranalysis as Dan did and i fear he could be right.
Maybe 16...Be6 is not winning....if so... sorry for that mistake.
I'll be more careful in the future.
Regards
Wahrheiten sind Illusionen von denen wir aber vergessen haben dass sie welche sind.
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Spliffjiffer
Posts: 416
Joined: Thu Aug 02, 2012 7:48 pm
Location: Germany

Re: Testposition

Post by Spliffjiffer »

Maybe this is an improvement:
16...Be6 17.fe f5 18.g6 Nxg6 19.Qxd8 Rbxd8 20.Bxf5 Rb8(instead of Sb3) 21.Ng5 Nb3 22.Nf7+ Kg8 23.Bg5 Nd4 24.Nd5 Rbe8 25.Nxd6 Nxf5 26. Nxe8 Rxe8 27.Rxf5 Rxe6

Although this is not really forced it seems to me that black has a good edge here.
The upcoming Rookending after eg 28.h4 Rd6 29.Nf6 Bxf6 30Bxf6 Rd4 31.Rg5 Kf7 32.Bxe5 Nxe5 33.Rxe5 b6 looks quite promising for black after my moderate analysis
Wahrheiten sind Illusionen von denen wir aber vergessen haben dass sie welche sind.
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Spliffjiffer
Posts: 416
Joined: Thu Aug 02, 2012 7:48 pm
Location: Germany

Re: Testposition

Post by Spliffjiffer »

by chance i just found the sources of the game i was talking about (i was asked about that and i didnt know it at that time) :
the game was I.Starostits (Lettland) vs M.Golubew (Ukraine), played in Germany at the "StauferOpen" (www.stauferopen.de) in 2004 in the penultimate round.
to complete it here is the full game:
I.Starostits (Lettland) vs M.Golubew (Ukraine), StauferOpen 2004 (penultimate round)
1. e4 c5 2. Nc3 Nc6 3. g3 g6 4. Bg2 Bg7 5. d3 d6 6. f4 Rb8 7. a4 e5 8. Nh3
Nge7 9. O-O O-O 10. f5 gxf5 11. exf5 f6 12. g4 Kh8 13. Qe1 Nd4 14. Qh4 Nxc2
15. Be4 Nxa1 16. g5 Be6 {the testposition} 17. Nd5 Bxd5 18. Bxd5 Qe8 19.
Kh1 Nc2 20. g6 Nxg6 21. fxg6 Qxg6 22. Rg1 Qe8 23. Be4 f5 24. Ng5 Qg6 25.
Bd5 f4 26. Be4 Qh6 27. Qf2 Ne3 28. Nxh7 d5 29. Nxf8 Rxf8 30. Bf3 c4 31.
dxc4 e4 32. Be2 Bd4 33. cxd5 Nc2 34. Qg2 Bxg1 35. Qxg1 Rg8 36. Qf1 Ne3 37.
Bxe3 fxe3 38. Qf5 Qh4 39. Qf1 Qh6 40. d6 Qxd6 41. Qh3+ Kg7 42. Qxe3 Qe5 43.
a5 Rh8 44. h3 Rh6 45. a6 b6 46. Bf1 Rf6 47. Bg2 Qf4 48. Qd4 e3 49. Qd7+ Rf7
50. Qe6 Rc7 resignation, 0:1

BTW: amazing how much better the engines have become in terms of solutiontime for this specific problem !
Wahrheiten sind Illusionen von denen wir aber vergessen haben dass sie welche sind.
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