TCEC 14 final: Lc0 just lost 3 games with tactical..

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Leo
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Re: TCEC 14 final: Lc0 just lost 3 games with tactical..

Post by Leo » Sat Feb 09, 2019 2:34 pm

M ANSARI wrote:
Sat Feb 09, 2019 7:06 am
This was bound to happen, but it just seems a lot more than I expected. Usually Lc0 fails with tactics much less often. I think this will be patched up soon and it won't be due to a new network. I think network alone is not sufficient enough to patch up these weird misses as it seems A0 also had some of these tactical misses (although much less).

But for TCEC, you have to realize this is an entertainment show more than actually engine test. The book lines used are intentionally made to create very tactical positions which are not in Lc0 favor. The idea is to reduce the number of draws as much as possible. It is not secret that Lc0 can be weak in some tactics and that tactics is something that needs to be patched up.

By the way, Lc0 also had some pretty incredible wins. Looking at the evaluation of the Blue Fish (176 thread SF) it seems that it would have beaten SF on that massive hardware in those games as well.
Where can I find Blue fish?
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Jouni
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Re: TCEC 14 final: Lc0 just lost 3 games with tactical..

Post by Jouni » Sat Feb 09, 2019 2:41 pm

Yes current situation in TCEC is surprisingly even! BTW in CCC5 SF is leading 17,5-12,5 against Lc0 t40. Wins 6 - 1 and one obvious tactical loss for Lc0.
Jouni

Leo
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Re: TCEC 14 final: Lc0 just lost 3 games with tactical..

Post by Leo » Sat Feb 09, 2019 4:29 pm

Jouni wrote:
Sat Feb 09, 2019 2:41 pm
Yes current situation in TCEC is surprisingly even! BTW in CCC5 SF is leading 17,5-12,5 against Lc0 t40. Wins 6 - 1 and one obvious tactical loss for Lc0.
Do you know if SF is using an opening book in the CCC5?
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Nay Lin Tun
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Re: TCEC 14 final: Lc0 just lost 3 games with tactical..

Post by Nay Lin Tun » Sat Feb 09, 2019 6:15 pm

Jouni wrote:
Sat Feb 09, 2019 2:41 pm
Yes current situation in TCEC is surprisingly even! BTW in CCC5 SF is leading 17,5-12,5 against Lc0 t40. Wins 6 - 1 and one obvious tactical loss for Lc0.
It is a T40 baby leela with 20 million game. Meanwhile Lc0 on TCEC is about 70 million games!! That new net is only 1/3 of training games of T30 and already got 1 win from SF. (tests shows that T40 is just -50 elo below T30)
T40 is likely to be stronger than T30 by +50 to +100 elo within 2 months.

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Re: TCEC 14 final: Lc0 just lost 3 games with tactical..

Post by jp » Sat Feb 09, 2019 10:48 pm

Leo wrote:
Sat Feb 09, 2019 4:29 pm
Jouni wrote:
Sat Feb 09, 2019 2:41 pm
Yes current situation in TCEC is surprisingly even! BTW in CCC5 SF is leading 17,5-12,5 against Lc0 t40. Wins 6 - 1 and one obvious tactical loss for Lc0.
Do you know if SF is using an opening book in the CCC5?
I don't think they ever give SF an opening book in CCC.
Just 7-man TB for both SF & Lc.

jp
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Re: TCEC 14 final: Lc0 just lost 3 games with tactical..

Post by jp » Sat Feb 09, 2019 10:53 pm

M ANSARI wrote:
Sat Feb 09, 2019 7:06 am
But for TCEC, you have to realize this is an entertainment show more than actually engine test.
That's even more true for CCC. They said so themselves. They make choices to make Lc more competitive & the competition more "entertaining".

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M ANSARI
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Re: TCEC 14 final: Lc0 just lost 3 games with tactical..

Post by M ANSARI » Sat Feb 09, 2019 11:43 pm

Well Lc0 got 3 games back and now it is all even. Great battle and really interesting how Lc0 totally outplays SF in quiet positions. If there is no tactical one move blunder by Lc0 then it is a really competitive match.

I will say that a lot of the result will be dictated with how the book pans out. Some positions that are with very heavy concrete tactics right out of the opening are favoring SF. But openings that are pretty calm out of book it really is very very difficult for SF. Some games Lc0 sees the win many moves before even Bluefish (170+ cores with 7 EGTB's) sees it.

Leo
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Re: TCEC 14 final: Lc0 just lost 3 games with tactical..

Post by Leo » Sun Feb 10, 2019 6:40 pm

jp wrote:
Sat Feb 09, 2019 10:48 pm
Leo wrote:
Sat Feb 09, 2019 4:29 pm
Jouni wrote:
Sat Feb 09, 2019 2:41 pm
Yes current situation in TCEC is surprisingly even! BTW in CCC5 SF is leading 17,5-12,5 against Lc0 t40. Wins 6 - 1 and one obvious tactical loss for Lc0.
Do you know if SF is using an opening book in the CCC5?
I don't think they ever give SF an opening book in CCC.
Just 7-man TB for both SF & Lc.
I see. I have an interest in seeing SF play LZ with a powerful book.
Advanced Micro Devices fan.

supersharp77
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Re: TCEC 14 final: Lc0 just lost 3 games with tactical..

Post by supersharp77 » Mon Feb 11, 2019 2:22 am

Leo wrote:
Sun Feb 10, 2019 6:40 pm
jp wrote:
Sat Feb 09, 2019 10:48 pm
Leo wrote:
Sat Feb 09, 2019 4:29 pm
Jouni wrote:
Sat Feb 09, 2019 2:41 pm
Yes current situation in TCEC is surprisingly even! BTW in CCC5 SF is leading 17,5-12,5 against Lc0 t40. Wins 6 - 1 and one obvious tactical loss for Lc0.
Do you know if SF is using an opening book in the CCC5?
I don't think they ever give SF an opening book in CCC.
Just 7-man TB for both SF & Lc.
I see. I have an interest in seeing SF play LZ with a powerful book.
With Stockfish playing LC0 without an opening book the result is 100% meaningless..."Apples & Oranges".. :wink:

Leo
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Re: TCEC 14 final: Lc0 just lost 3 games with tactical..

Post by Leo » Mon Feb 11, 2019 4:07 pm

supersharp77 wrote:
Mon Feb 11, 2019 2:22 am
Leo wrote:
Sun Feb 10, 2019 6:40 pm
jp wrote:
Sat Feb 09, 2019 10:48 pm
Leo wrote:
Sat Feb 09, 2019 4:29 pm
Jouni wrote:
Sat Feb 09, 2019 2:41 pm
Yes current situation in TCEC is surprisingly even! BTW in CCC5 SF is leading 17,5-12,5 against Lc0 t40. Wins 6 - 1 and one obvious tactical loss for Lc0.
Do you know if SF is using an opening book in the CCC5?
I don't think they ever give SF an opening book in CCC.
Just 7-man TB for both SF & Lc.
I see. I have an interest in seeing SF play LZ with a powerful book.
With Stockfish playing LC0 without an opening book the result is 100% meaningless..."Apples & Oranges".. :wink:
I pretty much agree. Its a huge handicap for SF.
Advanced Micro Devices fan.

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