Where are the funs of Leela?

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whereagles
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Re: Where are the funs of Leela?

Post by whereagles » Tue Jun 11, 2019 6:07 am

people get quite emotional about what is "best"

Dann Corbit
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Re: Where are the funs of Leela?

Post by Dann Corbit » Tue Jun 11, 2019 7:34 am

whereagles wrote:
Tue Jun 11, 2019 6:07 am
people get quite emotional about what is "best"
And that is OK.
I love passion in computer chess.
We humans are emotional beings.
And it is OK to be wrong too.
At least, I like to think that. Because I am wrong a lot.
Taking ideas is not a vice, it is a virtue. We have another word for this. It is called learning.
But sharing ideas is an even greater virtue. We have another word for this. It is called teaching.

whereagles
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Re: Where are the funs of Leela?

Post by whereagles » Tue Jun 11, 2019 7:45 am

that's fine. i just find it a bit pointless. in computer chess I just enjoy the games, which I could never reproduce over the board :)

corres
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Re: Where are the funs of Leela?

Post by corres » Tue Jun 11, 2019 9:40 am

I value those peoples who have self-critics.
However In scientific and in technical works we need opinions without emotions.
And chess engines are such products.
Naturally ones who only use these engines we should not expect emotionless - mainly in the case of youngsters.

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Ovyron
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Re: Where are the funs of Leela?

Post by Ovyron » Wed Jun 12, 2019 11:21 am

ChiefPushesWood wrote:
Thu Jun 06, 2019 2:12 pm
opening line selection (most of which NOBODY would ever play in serious chess)
Come on guys, this is the elephant in the room. The TCEC results are irrelevant because once you take out all those openings that are a poor representation of chess you're left with even smaller sample size that is laughable, and you could have gotten a better representation of who's best in your basement.

Who even knows if taking those bad openings out would have changed who advanced to the next division and who would have won the thing?

The very concept of reversed openings is wrong, and unnatural, if it was natural, every human chess game would be a 2 game match where the game is repeated with reversed colors, how much sense does that make?

If a pair of openings result on a win for white and a draw, in the future the engine that lost the first game should have an alternative found for black to avoid that line, while white would be happy to play that again.

All machines need a bookmaker that adjust what they play after every game to ensure they play at their best, like humans players do with their opening repertoire, if that is done, every game will be significant because it'll showcase the very best thing the machine could have played, and then you don't need a big sample size to know who's best, just like human chess doesn't need thousands of games to show who's the best.
Great spirits have always encountered violent opposition from mediocre minds.

Dann Corbit
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Re: Where are the funs of Leela?

Post by Dann Corbit » Wed Jun 12, 2019 4:42 pm

As long as the opening is not too lopsided, reversing the opening is a good ides.
Nobody is ever satisfied with the openings, even though competent people like Cato and Jeroen work on them.

Every good chess player wants their favorite chess opening included.
You will never satisfy everyone.

The main idea of the trivial openings whish get reversed is not to get the ultimate chess. It is to make it as fair as possible. It does a pretty good job of that.
Taking ideas is not a vice, it is a virtue. We have another word for this. It is called learning.
But sharing ideas is an even greater virtue. We have another word for this. It is called teaching.

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Re: Where are the funs of Leela?

Post by ChiefPushesWood » Wed Jun 12, 2019 5:02 pm

Dann Corbit wrote:
Wed Jun 12, 2019 4:42 pm
The main idea of the trivial openings whish get reversed is not to get the ultimate chess. It is to make it as fair as possible. It does a pretty good job of that.
This is a fair point... for the contest.

However, to use said 'contest' as a measuring stick as to which engine is 'best' is, again, SILLY. The OP seems to take issue with the fanboy postings that AB chess engines have come to 'an end of an era.' That's fine, because saying anything is at an end of an era at this point is JUST AS SILLY. But then, the OP goes ones step further and uses a different (and worse) contest to try to refute the Leela fans. Again, silliness all around.

My point... enjoy what you enjoy. I use them all - for various tasks. I enjoy some of the games. But I PROMISE YOU, the outcome of those contests have absolutely NO INFLUENCE AT ALL with which engines and tools I use for my purposes. (Chess Analysis and Corre. Games)

Chief

corres
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Re: Where are the funs of Leela?

Post by corres » Wed Jun 12, 2019 8:34 pm

corres wrote:
Wed Jun 05, 2019 9:10 am
I should like to read some interpretation about the results of Leela in TCEC 15. Champion Bonus.
Where is the "New Era"?
I repeated my post for those peoples who are "non-silly'" but can not understand the above two sentences and instead of giving genuine answer they find the cause of the weak role of Leela in everything but weakness of Leela.
Moreover they can not distinguish an interrogative sentence (Where is the "New Era"?) from an affirmative sentence (for eg. There is no any "New Era"). It is not an astonishment for me they do not want to take notice of my post in which I wrote down I agree (with AlphaZero and Leela) a new "era" STARTED. So I agree the development of chess engines arrived to a turning point.
I especially like those peoples who think everybody are "silly" only they are the trolley-buses.

ChiefPushesWood
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Re: Where are the funs of Leela?

Post by ChiefPushesWood » Wed Jun 12, 2019 9:12 pm

Not everyone, Corres... but one doesn't have to read very long in this thread before realizing how silly you're being. It's all good. I won't respond again to any of your posts regarding this... Hide in your semantics, ye who hath a forked tongue.

Chief

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Ovyron
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Re: Where are the funs of Leela?

Post by Ovyron » Wed Jun 12, 2019 9:13 pm

Dann Corbit wrote:
Wed Jun 12, 2019 4:42 pm
Nobody is ever satisfied with the openings, even though competent people like Cato and Jeroen work on them.

Every good chess player wants their favorite chess opening included.
You will never satisfy everyone.
Please reread the sentences you posted and see if they make sense in chess. They don't. They only make sense in "computer chess". Why is this?

Nobody expects Carlsen or Caruana to play their favorite openings [of the audience], they get on the chessboard and play the best they can. Cato or Jeroen aren't picking openings for them and forcing them to play a thematic match.

This should be emulated for chess engines, where they play the variations most advantageous to them, like humans do, and this process could even be automated without human intervention (GUIs like Chessbase or InfinityChess come with similar features where openings that perform badly are discouraged and openings that perform well are encouraged; engines are able to use Bin books and edit their weights to improve their lines, and I'm not even mentioning all the work some programmers have put so their engines have book learning, and all of this is irrelevant because the people in power of the computer chess world decided to go for irrelevant generic book lines nobody sane would play.)

A person should be satisfied because an engine played the line that gave it the best performance against a certain opponent, not because they like the line played. If the TCEC champion or the top engine of the CCRL gets decided by garbage chess lines we can only expect it to be a garbage champion.
Great spirits have always encountered violent opposition from mediocre minds.

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