Where are the funs of Leela?

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Nay Lin Tun
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Re: Where are the funs of Leela?

Post by Nay Lin Tun » Fri Jun 14, 2019 3:07 am

End of an era was already spread like viral!
OP think that it is me who is exaggerating. It is partially true in this forum. But the news already spread like wildfire in media sources like " youtube, reddit, chessnews sites", and also in "tcec and chess.com twitch chat"

One of reasons is that people want to hear interesting things and media spread/exaggerate this.

Honestly, I personally still think Leela is +20 to +30 elo above SF in TCEC conditions.


https://chess24.com/en/read/news/a-new ... stockfish
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corres
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Re: Where are the funs of Leela?

Post by corres » Fri Jun 14, 2019 7:48 am

Nay Lin Tun wrote:
Fri Jun 14, 2019 3:07 am
End of an era was already spread like viral!
OP think that it is me who is exaggerating. It is partially true in this forum. But the news already spread like wildfire in media sources like " youtube, reddit, chessnews sites", and also in "tcec and chess.com twitch chat"
One of reasons is that people want to hear interesting things and media spread/exaggerate this.
From peoples who just the user of Stockfish and Leela this is a natural reactions.
But from peoples who are "near to the blaze" and think (with more or less establishing) he is an expert would manifest about the theme with more low-key manner - even if he is believer of Leela.
At least this is wished by the correctness.
Nay Lin Tun wrote:
Fri Jun 14, 2019 3:07 am

Honestly, I personally still think Leela is +20 to +30 elo above SF in TCEC conditions.
Naturally everybody have right to their opinion.
But the value of every opinions are determined by how the opinions reflect the facts.
The "TCEC conditions" belongs to not only the used hardware but the system of the competition, the participants of the TCEC, the used opening book and the used Time Control also. Maybe you are right in a paired competition Leela is stronger with some Elo on the hardware of TCEC. But as the Champion Bonus proves in an another "TCEC conditions" Leela produces rather weak achievement.
Moreover "End of Era" is very sonorous statement but it is a non-established opinion as the above posts prove.

carldaman
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Re: Where are the funs of Leela?

Post by carldaman » Fri Jun 14, 2019 2:51 pm

As someone else suggested, the 'Dawn of a New Era' would be a better and somewhat less sensational way to express the same thought.

Nay Lin Tun
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Re: Where are the funs of Leela?

Post by Nay Lin Tun » Sat Jun 15, 2019 11:19 am

corres wrote:
Fri Jun 14, 2019 7:48 am
Nay Lin Tun wrote:
Fri Jun 14, 2019 3:07 am
End of an era was already spread like viral!
OP think that it is me who is exaggerating. It is partially true in this forum. But the news already spread like wildfire in media sources like " youtube, reddit, chessnews sites", and also in "tcec and chess.com twitch chat"
One of reasons is that people want to hear interesting things and media spread/exaggerate this.
From peoples who just the user of Stockfish and Leela this is a natural reactions.
But from peoples who are "near to the blaze" and think (with more or less establishing) he is an expert would manifest about the theme with more low-key manner - even if he is believer of Leela.
At least this is wished by the correctness.
Nay Lin Tun wrote:
Fri Jun 14, 2019 3:07 am

Honestly, I personally still think Leela is +20 to +30 elo above SF in TCEC conditions.
Naturally everybody have right to their opinion.
But the value of every opinions are determined by how the opinions reflect the facts.
The "TCEC conditions" belongs to not only the used hardware but the system of the competition, the participants of the TCEC, the used opening book and the used Time Control also. Maybe you are right in a paired competition Leela is stronger with some Elo on the hardware of TCEC. But as the Champion Bonus proves in an another "TCEC conditions" Leela produces rather weak achievement.
Moreover "End of Era" is very sonorous statement but it is a non-established opinion as the above posts prove.
Most of my opinions are based on results of leela tests on discord. As Tcec sample games are very small, the tournment results can varies from one to another.

In Leela discord , before Sufi 14 and Sufi 15, there were extensive amounts of games tested with exact SF vs Leela ratio in Tcec, around 5000 to 10, 000 games before s14 and 20,000+ games before S15.


Afaik, from one tester' report from approx 8000 games from Tcec opening book , the results says S15 Leela was +17 elo above SF, and S14 Leela was -20 elo below SF.

In real tcec final, S14 Leela overperformed and ended with -5 elo below SF and S15 Leela also overperformed and ended with +25 elo.

I think there are more than 500,000 games tested on Leela vs SF from various testers in 2019 alone.( some are custom testing conditions and some are exact simulation of Tcec condition)

With those data, I am still confident that Leela will again beat SF in S16 with similar results from S15.( note- there is approx +10 elo gain from SMP SF but newer Leela nets also gain +5 to +10 elo as of today)

jp
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Re: Where are the funs of Leela?

Post by jp » Sat Jun 15, 2019 1:22 pm

Nay Lin Tun wrote:
Sat Jun 15, 2019 11:19 am
In Leela discord , before Sufi 14 and Sufi 15, there were extensive amounts of games tested with exact SF vs Leela ratio in Tcec, around 5000 to 10, 000 games before s14 and 20,000+ games before S15.
Those tests must have used much smaller nodes per move, though, if there were so many games. That would then be just bullet game testing. It's not just the ratio that matters.

MikeGL
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Re: Where are the funs of Leela?

Post by MikeGL » Sat Jun 15, 2019 1:49 pm

I agree these NN are very strong. But I did a quick visit at CCC site for the currrent tourn, and was suprised to see Brainfish was demolishing Lc0 left and right. Don't know what's wrong but looks like it is vengeance time for A/B side.
I told my wife that a husband is like a fine wine; he gets better with age. The next day, she locked me in the cellar.

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mclane
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Re: Where are the funs of Leela?

Post by mclane » Sat Jun 15, 2019 1:58 pm

To me it is completely unimportant how lc0 plays Vs. Stockfish.
I put lc0 on my SLOWEST android device and look how it plays chess games against OTHER engines.

Lc0 Vs. Stockfish, both running impressive hardware is IMO boring.
I am more interested in seeing lc0 play strategic against AB programs who play mostly tactical.

I find it extremely funny to see how an engine generates ELO with strategy and absence of tactical skills.

On my SLOWEST android device lc0 makes 10-15 NPS.
What seems like a fairy tale today may be reality tomorrow.
Here we have a fairy tale of the day after tomorrow....

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mclane
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Re: Where are the funs of Leela?

Post by mclane » Sat Jun 15, 2019 7:28 pm

What seems like a fairy tale today may be reality tomorrow.
Here we have a fairy tale of the day after tomorrow....

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M ANSARI
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Re: Where are the funs of Leela?

Post by M ANSARI » Sun Jun 16, 2019 4:41 am

Can someone fix or edit the "Where are the funs of Leela". I think the person meant to write "fans" rather than "funs". Is it possible to edit your titles after posting?

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Laskos
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Re: Where are the funs of Leela?

Post by Laskos » Sun Jun 16, 2019 8:18 am

MikeGL wrote:
Sat Jun 15, 2019 1:49 pm
I agree these NN are very strong. But I did a quick visit at CCC site for the currrent tourn, and was suprised to see Brainfish was demolishing Lc0 left and right. Don't know what's wrong but looks like it is vengeance time for A/B side.
I had a look now too. You have to be aware of the conditions. Right now they are playing starting from the move 22 (!) of some important game of the past. So, right from the middlegame, completely missing the opening and early midgame. The games are rapid, not LTC. BF is on 90 real cores, Lc0 is on 4x 2080ti GPUs (and doesn't scale well with them).

All in all, in these conditions favoring BF, especially that the openings are completely skipped, +7 -3 result for BF is expected.

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