Moderators: hgm, Rebel, chrisw
There is a way that a top engine might be able to give knight odds to a top GM in rapid play. It was a handicap given by Philidor, which I might call "knight for tempo" odds. White makes his first move (let's say 1.e4), then Black removes one of White's knights (maybe alternating for variety), but this counts as Black's first move, so White gets to move again, perhaps 2.d4, before Black makes a real move. I suppose the argument is that if White had left a knight en prise, Black would have to spend a move to capture it, so it seems fair. Normal knight odds is really tough to give, because the missing knight gives Black more center control as well as an exta piece. For example, with b1 gone, 1e4 d5 is already pleasant for Black even if White gets his missing piece back after a few moves. With knight for tempo, at least White retains the normal White opening initiative. It's never been tried in a public game, but unofficial games suggest it is somewhere between pawn and thre moves and normal knight odds.Chessqueen wrote: ↑Tue Jul 02, 2019 10:13 pm I suppose either of these two can give Carlsen or MVL a Knight Odds, probably NOT, a Knight is a lot to give to a GM according to Larry Kaufman
"Well we already "proved" that this is so, John Meyer won 3 to 1 at regular knight odds vs Komodo, but lost 0-4 at frc knight odds, both 45' + 15". Komodo has no chance giving knight odds in normal chess to strong GMs at rapid (not blitz) time controls, but may have some chance at frc knight odds, depending on the time control and the rating of the GM. But even with frc, knight odds is a lot to give to a GM with enough time to think."
https://tcec.chessdom.com/
PS: You are correct Larry,and I also believe that it will take another 10 years for any engine to give a Rook Odds to any strong GM. Another interesting thing to notice is that Komodo and Stockfish can also find the exact moves nedeed to create this Draw masterpiece at the end.lkaufman wrote: ↑Wed Jul 03, 2019 12:36 amThere is a way that a top engine might be able to give knight odds to a top GM in rapid play. It was a handicap given by Philidor, which I might call "knight for tempo" odds. White makes his first move (let's say 1.e4), then Black removes one of White's knights (maybe alternating for variety), but this counts as Black's first move, so White gets to move again, perhaps 2.d4, before Black makes a real move. I suppose the argument is that if White had left a knight en prise, Black would have to spend a move to capture it, so it seems fair. Normal knight odds is really tough to give, because the missing knight gives Black more center control as well as an exta piece. For example, with b1 gone, 1e4 d5 is already pleasant for Black even if White gets his missing piece back after a few moves. With knight for tempo, at least White retains the normal White opening initiative. It's never been tried in a public game, but unofficial games suggest it is somewhere between pawn and thre moves and normal knight odds.Chessqueen wrote: ↑Tue Jul 02, 2019 10:13 pm I suppose either of these two can give Carlsen or MVL a Knight Odds, probably NOT, a Knight is a lot to give to a GM according to Larry Kaufman
"Well we already "proved" that this is so, John Meyer won 3 to 1 at regular knight odds vs Komodo, but lost 0-4 at frc knight odds, both 45' + 15". Komodo has no chance giving knight odds in normal chess to strong GMs at rapid (not blitz) time controls, but may have some chance at frc knight odds, depending on the time control and the rating of the GM. But even with frc, knight odds is a lot to give to a GM with enough time to think."
https://tcec.chessdom.com/
By the way, the engine that is best at giving knight odds is Lc0 with an old network like 11248. in my opinion.