Father versus Deepblue in the ocean. September 04/2019.. Open letter to Garry Kasparov

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Ovyron
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Re: Father versus Deepblue in the ocean. September 04/2019.. Open letter to Garry Kasparov

Post by Ovyron » Thu Sep 05, 2019 12:22 pm

BrendanJNorman wrote:
Thu Sep 05, 2019 11:20 am
I was a HUGE fan of his chess in my teens when he was active - but outside of chess, there seems to be no virtue I can see.
Um, I had the impression that Magnus Carlsen couldn't have been the #1 player in the world for so long without Kasparov's help? So a virtue could have been being a good mentor.
Great spirits have always encountered violent opposition from mediocre minds.

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Re: Father versus Deepblue in the ocean. September 04/2019.. Open letter to Garry Kasparov

Post by BrendanJNorman » Thu Sep 05, 2019 2:24 pm

Ovyron wrote:
Thu Sep 05, 2019 12:22 pm
BrendanJNorman wrote:
Thu Sep 05, 2019 11:20 am
I was a HUGE fan of his chess in my teens when he was active - but outside of chess, there seems to be no virtue I can see.
Um, I had the impression that Magnus Carlsen couldn't have been the #1 player in the world for so long without Kasparov's help? So a virtue could have been being a good mentor.
You're my buddy Ovy, but this is nonsense.

Kasparov's training of Carlsen (and later Nakamura) is no more virtuous than the barista at Starbucks making my coffee.

Kasparov is indeed, perhaps the highest-paid grandmaster on earth, and charged SERIOUS sums of money for his work with Carlsen (and Naka) and definitely wouldn't have given them a discount out of the kindness (or virtue) of his heart.
People With Money reports on Wednesday (September 4) that Kasparov is the highest-paid chess grandmaster in the world, pulling in an astonishing $58 million between August 2018 and August 2019, a nearly $30 million lead over his closest competition.
And that's not to mention that this guy has political reasons for wanting to keep Western players ahead of Russians.

This being said, Carlsen was already holding guys like Karpov when he was 13...and in 2009 after working with Kaspy, the biggest difference we seemed to notice from his play was the high tech openings (killing guys in the Scotch and so on).

In recent years, Carlsen has become lazy, started to play *whatever* opening, yet still defends his title each time, so your assertion that Kasparov's influence helped him keep the title so long has got to be false.

It's his natural genius and tenacity (willingness to play on for 200 moves while his opponent tires) that wins the matches for him.

Nakamura said that the main thing he got from training with Kaspy was the openings prep...which is interesting since his playing style matches Kaspy more closely.

So in my view, there isn't much virtue in a) making 500k for a month of training a young talent (most ppl would train their worse enemy's kid for that money) and b) Kaspy's training of Carlsen in 2009 didn't contribute much to his long reign as champ. :)

Feel free to debate me on it haha. ;)

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Re: Father versus Deepblue in the ocean. September 04/2019.. Open letter to Garry Kasparov

Post by supersharp77 » Fri Sep 06, 2019 3:16 am

BrendanJNorman wrote:
Thu Sep 05, 2019 11:14 am
supersharp77 wrote:
Thu Sep 05, 2019 5:07 am

Deep Blues 'Famous move 8. Nxe6 !!' Shook Kasparov to the Core...Unnerved he lost quickly in only 19 moves!
8.Nxe6 was in DB's opening book, so I wouldn't give it !! - since the move wasn't stumbled upon by the computer independently.

Even Kasparov was aware of this move, and in fact, it is not winning...there are chances for both sides.

Nxe6 had already been played dozens of times in tournament play and Kasparov was the leading opening theoretician of the day - it's naive to think he was unaware of it.

My feeling is that in his preparation, Kasparov came across a game between Fritz and GM Timoschenko which was drawn...

I suppose Kasparov reasoned "I'm much stronger than Timoshenko and Fritz is more or less the same level as DB - I'll go for this line and have good chances of success."

It was Kasparov's paranoia and low EQ (too busy huffing and puffing and muttering to himself, to clear his head and assess the position) which led to his horrible play and fast loss.
Well 13. Qb1 Looks a bit weak....either Qe2 or Re1 looks better! White looks great after 15. Qf7! :D :wink:
[Event "?]
[Site "?"]
[Date ".??.??"]
[Round "?"]
[White "na]
[Black "na]
[Result "1-0?"]
[ECO "B17"]
[na]


lkaufman
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Re: Father versus Deepblue in the ocean. September 04/2019.. Open letter to Garry Kasparov

Post by lkaufman » Fri Sep 06, 2019 5:10 am

Father wrote:
Wed Sep 04, 2019 10:51 pm
mwyoung wrote:
Wed Sep 04, 2019 10:40 pm
Father wrote:
Wed Sep 04, 2019 10:17 pm
September 04, 2019

Open letter to Garry Kasparov.


Deep blue was a part of a crucial moment in the history of mankind. The great and great Gary Kasparov faced the power of the machine and economic corporations. The role played by the world champion was extraordinary. Today I wonder if the valuation parameters between game and game were modified. If the answer was affirmative, only that is sufficient reason to disqualify to the computer and remove or dispose of the title doping.

The doping would then be the intervention of the human by changing the lines of play in the course of the confrontation.

I believe that all chess programmers have a moral responsibility to humanity. Scientists and computer programmers of chess must tell us through the study of the games if the value system between them has differences.

I would like to have a deep blue today in front of me; I know it would be a lot of scrap metal. The problem is that IBM shares would fall to their worst historical value.

Please scientific sirs: Help us. Were the valuation systems changed in that historic match? If the answer is, YES THEY WERE, "if they were", and they were not automatically changed by the machine, that match for me was a terrible fraud and ambush against the always great and virtuous Garry Kasparov, who was then a victim of ambush.

Sincerely,

Pablo Ignacio Restrepo
Father and Grand-Father playchess.com player



Trying playserver.chessbase.com Connected Login Welcome, Grand-Father! Server Time = 21:36 (UTC+2h), 2857 users online 8 pm ( CET) – Wednesday-Blitz 5+0, 9 rounds. More Information see Tournaments -> Room Official B -> Info Your local weather: [WTH_2CLOUD_NORAIN], Temperature: 26°C, Wind: NEE 0Bft. Rated (Classic) 1m+3s No. of players receiving your offer: 5 Rated (Classic)
Intel(R) Core(TM) i9-7920X CPU @ 2.90GHz 2904MHz, (12 cores, 24 threads) New Elo: 2069 (+31),

Yes. The evaluation parameters was changed between games. If that is the question. And this action was allowed by the rules of the match. This was a chess match. GM Kasparov was very ignorant of computer chess. And to think Deep Blue would play as a typical desktop chess engine of the day. With the same weaknesses in closed positions, and other computer chess weaknesses of the day.
mwyoung,

I did not know that chess computer chess program paremeters could be changed... What a sad news!!
If it was allowed by the match rules (which is normal for computer chess events), why is this sad news? Kasparov could change his strategy based on the games, why not his opponent? In any case using multiprocessing makes for randomness, so even without any changes the machine would not necessarily play the same move given the same position. Presumably the opening book was (or could have been) randomized too. Changing parameters was not a significant factor.
Komodo rules!

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Re: Father versus Deepblue in the ocean. September 04/2019.. Open letter to Garry Kasparov

Post by Father » Fri Sep 06, 2019 12:49 pm

Larry, All changes that happened during the tournament on the computer or machine as a result of the intervention of the will of man, result in a combat where on one side was Garry Kasparov and on the other side the machine plus a human being which changed its databases and its valuation system during the tournament. Deep blue autonomously did not have the ability to decide on its own if it would be more or less aggressive, and so on. As an example. if I face Komodo or Stockfish or Fritz, the machines alone would be the only ones that could decide the change in valuation; any intervention of a human being before or during the tournament, which varies the assessment of the algorithm, I would not accept it in any way, since this is a deliberate act of human will, a true act of doping. The explanation is simple: What the machine cannot decide on its own and another intelligent entity decides and instructs, it is the generation of a man-machine entity; Result: Disqualification of machine equipment. At least for everyone who wants to face me on machine against human. Sincerely, Pablo
I am thinking chess is in a coin.Human beings for ever playing in one face.Now I am playing in the other face:"Antichess". Computers are as a fortres where owner forgot to close a little door behind. You must enter across this door.Forget the front.

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Ovyron
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Re: Father versus Deepblue in the ocean. September 04/2019.. Open letter to Garry Kasparov

Post by Ovyron » Sat Sep 07, 2019 6:48 pm

BrendanJNorman wrote:
Thu Sep 05, 2019 2:24 pm
You're my buddy Ovy, but this is nonsense.
Hey, being buddies means we can discuss stuff without getting mad at each other :mrgreen:
BrendanJNorman wrote:
Thu Sep 05, 2019 2:24 pm
Nakamura said that the main thing he got from training with Kaspy was the openings prep...which is interesting since his playing style matches Kaspy more closely.
So here's the thing: in a world where Kasparov has no virtue whatsoever I'd expect to hear from Nakamura that he mainly got nothing from his training with him, and reports from Carlsen that people should avoid getting Kaspy as trainer because he got nothing out of it. When so much money flies around, I'd have expected that if Kasparov had no virtue, someone would have already sued him by now for being a scammer and overpricing his training, and there would be big publicity about how he was charging his pupils for nothing. If Kasparov didn't have any virtue, the media would have already eaten him alive, because that's what they do.

While I'm not stating that Kasparov has any virtue, I haven't seen signals that he doesn't, for all I know if he trained me for free (I'd not charge him for training me :lol: ) he could make me a top player or whatever.

I see it the other way around, he set his price, and really smart chess players were willing to pay that price to get trained, because they believed Kaspy was a chess trainer virtuoso. Saying he isn't virtuous is like saying Carlsen and Naka are dumb for believing he was, and they're still dumb for not realizing that he never was (so they should ask for their money back.)
Great spirits have always encountered violent opposition from mediocre minds.

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Re: Father versus Deepblue in the ocean. September 04/2019.. Open letter to Garry Kasparov

Post by Father » Sat Sep 07, 2019 10:00 pm

“Hard work, virtue and gift”🧗🏿‍♀️🏋🏿‍♀️😇⛹️‍♀️
I am thinking chess is in a coin.Human beings for ever playing in one face.Now I am playing in the other face:"Antichess". Computers are as a fortres where owner forgot to close a little door behind. You must enter across this door.Forget the front.

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Ovyron
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Re: Father versus Deepblue in the ocean. September 04/2019.. Open letter to Garry Kasparov

Post by Ovyron » Sun Sep 08, 2019 2:30 am

Father wrote:
Sat Sep 07, 2019 10:00 pm
“Hard work, virtue and gift”🧗🏿‍♀️🏋🏿‍♀️😇⛹️‍♀️
In human psychology, people tend to believe that the more something requires hard work, the more valuable it is. In reality, cheap wine can taste better than the most expensive ones, if you're not told its price...
Great spirits have always encountered violent opposition from mediocre minds.

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Re: Father versus Deepblue in the ocean. September 04/2019.. Open letter to Garry Kasparov

Post by Uri Blass » Sun Sep 08, 2019 6:02 am

Father wrote:
Fri Sep 06, 2019 12:49 pm
Larry, All changes that happened during the tournament on the computer or machine as a result of the intervention of the will of man, result in a combat where on one side was Garry Kasparov and on the other side the machine plus a human being which changed its databases and its valuation system during the tournament. Deep blue autonomously did not have the ability to decide on its own if it would be more or less aggressive, and so on. As an example. if I face Komodo or Stockfish or Fritz, the machines alone would be the only ones that could decide the change in valuation; any intervention of a human being before or during the tournament, which varies the assessment of the algorithm, I would not accept it in any way, since this is a deliberate act of human will, a true act of doping. The explanation is simple: What the machine cannot decide on its own and another intelligent entity decides and instructs, it is the generation of a man-machine entity; Result: Disqualification of machine equipment. At least for everyone who wants to face me on machine against human. Sincerely, Pablo
There is a difference between changes during the game that you do not allow and changes during the tournament between the games that are allowed
for both sides.

Note that in a tournament you are allowed to talk with other people between games and accept their suggestions in the next game.

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Re: Father versus Deepblue in the ocean. September 04/2019.. Open letter to Garry Kasparov

Post by Uri Blass » Sun Sep 08, 2019 6:09 am

Ovyron wrote:
Sat Sep 07, 2019 6:48 pm
BrendanJNorman wrote:
Thu Sep 05, 2019 2:24 pm
You're my buddy Ovy, but this is nonsense.
Hey, being buddies means we can discuss stuff without getting mad at each other :mrgreen:
BrendanJNorman wrote:
Thu Sep 05, 2019 2:24 pm
Nakamura said that the main thing he got from training with Kaspy was the openings prep...which is interesting since his playing style matches Kaspy more closely.
So here's the thing: in a world where Kasparov has no virtue whatsoever I'd expect to hear from Nakamura that he mainly got nothing from his training with him, and reports from Carlsen that people should avoid getting Kaspy as trainer because he got nothing out of it. When so much money flies around, I'd have expected that if Kasparov had no virtue, someone would have already sued him by now for being a scammer and overpricing his training, and there would be big publicity about how he was charging his pupils for nothing. If Kasparov didn't have any virtue, the media would have already eaten him alive, because that's what they do.

While I'm not stating that Kasparov has any virtue, I haven't seen signals that he doesn't, for all I know if he trained me for free (I'd not charge him for training me :lol: ) he could make me a top player or whatever.

I see it the other way around, he set his price, and really smart chess players were willing to pay that price to get trained, because they believed Kaspy was a chess trainer virtuoso. Saying he isn't virtuous is like saying Carlsen and Naka are dumb for believing he was, and they're still dumb for not realizing that he never was (so they should ask for their money back.)
I believe that most humans cannot become top players regardless of the trainer.
Carlsen and Nakamura were already top players when kasparov started to train them based on my understanding.

I do not know much about the ability of kasparov as a trainer but if he can help players with more than 2700 to improve and become 50 elo better then it worth a lot of money for them(note that I do not claim that he can do it and I do not know).

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