The Busted Dutch

[Lyudmil Tsvetkov]

Matter of fact is though, the Dutch (Defence) is busted.
Or at least, far far from optimal.
What do my year-long investigations show?

[d]rnbqkbnr/ppppp1pp/8/5p2/3P4/8/PPP1PPPP/RNBQKBNR w KQkq - 0 2

2.d5 is not even in the top twenty according to Lc0 (network 320x24.J13-swa-410000) with 100M nodes. Note: In the output that follows, moves are ranked from worst to best.

Code: Select all

0911 20:32:17.108149 140051065321216 ../../src/chess/uciloop.cc:218] << info string c1h6  (69  ) N:    1427 (+ 0) (P:  0.84%) (Q: -0.95274) (D:  0.015) (U: 1.17295) (Q+U:  0.22021) (V: -0.9789) 
0911 20:32:17.108163 140051065321216 ../../src/chess/uciloop.cc:218] << info string e1d2  (105 ) N:    3510 (+ 0) (P:  0.92%) (Q: -0.30344) (D:  0.322) (U: 0.52364) (Q+U:  0.22020) (V: -0.3060) 
0911 20:32:17.108173 140051065321216 ../../src/chess/uciloop.cc:218] << info string g2g4  (378 ) N:   12881 (+ 0) (P:  1.45%) (Q: -0.00499) (D:  0.331) (U: 0.22529) (Q+U:  0.22030) (V:  0.0266) 
0911 20:32:17.108181 140051065321216 ../../src/chess/uciloop.cc:218] << info string f2f4  (351 ) N:   15443 (+ 0) (P:  1.56%) (Q:  0.01810) (D:  0.430) (U: 0.20221) (Q+U:  0.22031) (V:  0.0471) 
0911 20:32:17.108190 140051065321216 ../../src/chess/uciloop.cc:218] << info string e2e4  (322 ) N:   17331 (+ 0) (P:  1.56%) (Q:  0.03943) (D:  0.337) (U: 0.18085) (Q+U:  0.22028) (V:  0.1204) 
0911 20:32:17.108199 140051065321216 ../../src/chess/uciloop.cc:218] << info string b1a3  (34  ) N:   18498 (+ 0) (P:  1.62%) (Q:  0.04491) (D:  0.412) (U: 0.17539) (Q+U:  0.22030) (V:  0.1318) 
0911 20:32:17.108207 140051065321216 ../../src/chess/uciloop.cc:218] << info string d4d5  (761 ) N:   20406 (+ 0) (P:  1.56%) (Q:  0.06677) (D:  0.396) (U: 0.15352) (Q+U:  0.22029) (V:  0.1287) 
0911 20:32:17.108216 140051065321216 ../../src/chess/uciloop.cc:218] << info string b2b4  (234 ) N:   21020 (+ 0) (P:  1.75%) (Q:  0.05360) (D:  0.392) (U: 0.16670) (Q+U:  0.22031) (V:  0.0962) 
0911 20:32:17.108224 140051065321216 ../../src/chess/uciloop.cc:218] << info string d1d2  (81  ) N:   24952 (+ 0) (P:  1.78%) (Q:  0.07717) (D:  0.403) (U: 0.14313) (Q+U:  0.22030) (V:  0.1211) 
0911 20:32:17.108233 140051065321216 ../../src/chess/uciloop.cc:218] << info string f2f3  (346 ) N:   25508 (+ 0) (P:  1.74%) (Q:  0.08339) (D:  0.363) (U: 0.13690) (Q+U:  0.22029) (V:  0.1770) 
0911 20:32:17.108241 140051065321216 ../../src/chess/uciloop.cc:218] << info string c1e3  (63  ) N:   44942 (+ 0) (P:  1.99%) (Q:  0.13183) (D:  0.400) (U: 0.08848) (Q+U:  0.22031) (V:  0.1627) 
0911 20:32:17.108262 140051065321216 ../../src/chess/uciloop.cc:218] << info string a2a4  (207 ) N:   48056 (+ 0) (P:  2.10%) (Q:  0.13286) (D:  0.410) (U: 0.08745) (Q+U:  0.22031) (V:  0.1554) 
0911 20:32:17.108271 140051065321216 ../../src/chess/uciloop.cc:218] << info string b1d2  (33  ) N:   50630 (+ 0) (P:  2.22%) (Q:  0.13251) (D:  0.406) (U: 0.08781) (Q+U:  0.22031) (V:  0.2007) 
0911 20:32:17.108280 140051065321216 ../../src/chess/uciloop.cc:218] << info string h2h4  (403 ) N:   62292 (+ 0) (P:  2.17%) (Q:  0.15049) (D:  0.395) (U: 0.06982) (Q+U:  0.22031) (V:  0.2065) 
0911 20:32:17.108288 140051065321216 ../../src/chess/uciloop.cc:218] << info string c1d2  (57  ) N:   64891 (+ 0) (P:  2.42%) (Q:  0.14566) (D:  0.407) (U: 0.07466) (Q+U:  0.22031) (V:  0.1802) 
0911 20:32:17.108296 140051065321216 ../../src/chess/uciloop.cc:218] << info string c2c3  (259 ) N:   68999 (+ 0) (P:  2.24%) (Q:  0.15515) (D:  0.418) (U: 0.06516) (Q+U:  0.22031) (V:  0.1830) 
0911 20:32:17.108304 140051065321216 ../../src/chess/uciloop.cc:218] << info string b2b3  (230 ) N:   77283 (+ 0) (P:  2.33%) (Q:  0.15994) (D:  0.415) (U: 0.06037) (Q+U:  0.22031) (V:  0.1804) 
0911 20:32:17.108314 140051065321216 ../../src/chess/uciloop.cc:218] << info string b1c3  (36  ) N:   82494 (+ 0) (P:  2.32%) (Q:  0.16390) (D:  0.400) (U: 0.05641) (Q+U:  0.22031) (V:  0.2372) 
0911 20:32:17.108323 140051065321216 ../../src/chess/uciloop.cc:218] << info string g1h3  (161 ) N:   85118 (+ 0) (P:  2.36%) (Q:  0.16487) (D:  0.396) (U: 0.05544) (Q+U:  0.22031) (V:  0.1824) 
0911 20:32:17.108332 140051065321216 ../../src/chess/uciloop.cc:218] << info string d1d3  (86  ) N:   89777 (+ 0) (P:  2.31%) (Q:  0.16876) (D:  0.369) (U: 0.05154) (Q+U:  0.22031) (V:  0.2438) 
0911 20:32:17.108341 140051065321216 ../../src/chess/uciloop.cc:218] << info string h2h3  (400 ) N:  122776 (+ 0) (P:  2.61%) (Q:  0.17766) (D:  0.405) (U: 0.04266) (Q+U:  0.22031) (V:  0.1957) 
0911 20:32:17.108350 140051065321216 ../../src/chess/uciloop.cc:218] << info string a2a3  (204 ) N:  124274 (+ 0) (P:  2.56%) (Q:  0.17911) (D:  0.411) (U: 0.04121) (Q+U:  0.22031) (V:  0.1847) 
0911 20:32:17.108366 140051065321216 ../../src/chess/uciloop.cc:218] << info string e2e3  (317 ) N:  167966 (+ 0) (P:  2.61%) (Q:  0.18916) (D:  0.408) (U: 0.03115) (Q+U:  0.22031) (V:  0.1820) 
0911 20:32:17.108374 140051065321216 ../../src/chess/uciloop.cc:218] << info string c1g5  (67  ) N:  307262 (+ 0) (P:  8.95%) (Q:  0.16194) (D:  0.379) (U: 0.05837) (Q+U:  0.22031) (V:  0.2063) 
0911 20:32:17.108382 140051065321216 ../../src/chess/uciloop.cc:218] << info string c1f4  (65  ) N: 1152437 (+ 0) (P:  8.51%) (Q:  0.20553) (D:  0.385) (U: 0.01478) (Q+U:  0.22031) (V:  0.2275) 
0911 20:32:17.108390 140051065321216 ../../src/chess/uciloop.cc:218] << info string g1f3  (159 ) N: 6811983 (+ 0) (P:  9.30%) (Q:  0.21644) (D:  0.435) (U: 0.00274) (Q+U:  0.21917) (V:  0.2218) 
0911 20:32:17.108398 140051065321216 ../../src/chess/uciloop.cc:218] << info string c2c4  (264 ) N: 13234059 (+ 0) (P: 11.33%) (Q:  0.21723) (D:  0.422) (U: 0.00172) (Q+U:  0.21894) (V:  0.2166) 
0911 20:32:17.108406 140051065321216 ../../src/chess/uciloop.cc:218] << info string g2g3  (374 ) N: 77012590 (+ 8) (P: 16.88%) (Q:  0.21988) (D:  0.414) (U: 0.00044) (Q+U:  0.22031) (V:  0.2371) 
0911 20:32:21.551563 140051073713920 ../../src/mcts/search.cc:384] Stopped search: Reached visits limit: 100000056>=100000000

You wanna tell me 0 centipawns for all the moves apart from 2. g3?
That's certainly unrealistic.
The point is to play 2. d5, as otherwise black will occupy that square with a pawn.

How many cores has your new config, Louis?

Man, that new layout sucks BIG TIME.
I can hardly make sense of what the engine is posting.
Is Stockfish better?
Why that rage for Leela, when Stock is better, elowise and otherwise?
En vogue?

[Lyudmil Tsvetkov]

Hi Lyudmill,

I just downloaded the kindle version of your book and just finished reading the forward. Anyway I let Leela (J13B2-136) sit on your Dutch opening position and it likes 2. g3. After giving it 2. d5 it feels black has a 49% chance of winning with Nf6.

I agree because even though it looks like d5 will cramp black up white over extends himself and black will only pick apart the d5 pawn and other subsequent fortifying moves.

Is that you, Lonnie, or the Devil?
Man, you've changed.
"Pick apart" - easy to say, but how you achieve that in practice?
White can fortify d5, to use your language, utilising moves like, c2-c4, Nc3, and g2-g3, followed by Bg2.
Not at all easy to do away with that puissant wedge splotch in the very center.
Play out some potential continuations on a board to see how things develop.

[Lyudmil Tsvetkov]

How is 30-40 centipawns "busted"?
Black is struggling in both the mainline and Bf4 setups. It's very hard to get anything below +1 for black after 2.Bf4 and the resulting positions are very painful and passive. Even if 2.d5 is good you have to beat the other options for it to be worth it and that's a very high bar in case of the opening as bad as Dutch.

The Dutch is not AT ALL bad, if you allow the Stonewall.
2. Bf4?! does precisely that: allowing black to budge 2...d7-d5!, firmly clamping the center.
I have investigated the Stonewall very very carefully, played endless encounters versus top engines, and I DO KNOW from practice
the Stonewall is a complete draw by move 25 or so.
Hence, if allowed, white should seize his chance and push 2. d5!, banning the possibility of a Stonewall formation.
Don't look at current top engine scores, they are very very deceptive.
+100 centipawns white advantage, lol. That's funny.
How many games would engines win from 1. d4 f5 2. Bf4 according to you?
I bet you will get a score in the vicinity of 55% or so, so where is the "winning" +100 cps score?

PS. Man, this forum outlay sucks big time, did I say that?
I already get headache.
And why should I constantly switch back and forth between thread pages, after reading not more than 5 or 6 messages?
The former layout was much much smoother.

[Lyudmil Tsvetkov]

Hi Lyudmill,

I just downloaded the kindle version of your book and just finished reading the forward. Anyway I let Leela (J13B2-136) sit on your Dutch opening position and it likes 2. g3. After giving it 2. d5 it feels black has a 49% chance of winning with Nf6.

Yes, after 2.d5, Lc0 suggests that 2...Nf6 immediately equalizes:

Nodes: 100M, N/s: 21.5k, Time: 1h 17m (limit met)

49.6% Nf6 Nc3 e6 a3 Qe7 Bg5 c6 dxe6 Qxe6 Nf3 d5 e3 Nbd7 Ne2 Ne4 Ned4 Qf7 Be2 a6 O-O g6 Bf4 Bg7 Nd2 O-O c4 Nxd2 Qxd2 dxc4 Rac1 b5 b3 c5 Nf3 c3 Rxc3 Bxc3 Qxc3 Bb7 Rd1 Qe7 Bh6 Rfe8 Bg5 Qe6 a4 Bc6 h4 Rac8 Bf1 Bxf3 gxf3 c4 bxc4 bxa4 Kg2 Nc5 Rd5 Qf7 Bf4 Rc6 Qa3 Qe7 Bg5 Qf8 Bf4 Rec8 Be5 Qe7 Bd4 (N: 98.9M, P: 32.7%)

3. Nc3 is suboptimal.
3. c4! is far stronger. The point is to hold onto the d5-strongpoint.
Btw., best for black is possibly 2...e5!?, though white still manages to get significant edge after this alike.

[Lyudmil Tsvetkov]

Following the analysis of your 4th variation from your book. Leela prefers 3. Nc3 here over 3.c4



And really digs 4. ... a5 over 4. ... d6



See what you made me do. Now back to game one. For the record I play humans so all ideas are welcome here.

When did you manage to read all that, lol?
Indeed, 2. c4 is much stronger.
What's so funny about it?

[zullil]

Matter of fact is though, the Dutch (Defence) is busted.
Or at least, far far from optimal.
What do my year-long investigations show?

[d]rnbqkbnr/ppppp1pp/8/5p2/3P4/8/PPP1PPPP/RNBQKBNR w KQkq - 0 2

2.d5 is not even in the top twenty according to Lc0 (network 320x24.J13-swa-410000) with 100M nodes. Note: In the output that follows, moves are ranked from worst to best.

Code: Select all

0911 20:32:17.108149 140051065321216 ../../src/chess/uciloop.cc:218] << info string c1h6  (69  ) N:    1427 (+ 0) (P:  0.84%) (Q: -0.95274) (D:  0.015) (U: 1.17295) (Q+U:  0.22021) (V: -0.9789) 
0911 20:32:17.108163 140051065321216 ../../src/chess/uciloop.cc:218] << info string e1d2  (105 ) N:    3510 (+ 0) (P:  0.92%) (Q: -0.30344) (D:  0.322) (U: 0.52364) (Q+U:  0.22020) (V: -0.3060) 
0911 20:32:17.108173 140051065321216 ../../src/chess/uciloop.cc:218] << info string g2g4  (378 ) N:   12881 (+ 0) (P:  1.45%) (Q: -0.00499) (D:  0.331) (U: 0.22529) (Q+U:  0.22030) (V:  0.0266) 
0911 20:32:17.108181 140051065321216 ../../src/chess/uciloop.cc:218] << info string f2f4  (351 ) N:   15443 (+ 0) (P:  1.56%) (Q:  0.01810) (D:  0.430) (U: 0.20221) (Q+U:  0.22031) (V:  0.0471) 
0911 20:32:17.108190 140051065321216 ../../src/chess/uciloop.cc:218] << info string e2e4  (322 ) N:   17331 (+ 0) (P:  1.56%) (Q:  0.03943) (D:  0.337) (U: 0.18085) (Q+U:  0.22028) (V:  0.1204) 
0911 20:32:17.108199 140051065321216 ../../src/chess/uciloop.cc:218] << info string b1a3  (34  ) N:   18498 (+ 0) (P:  1.62%) (Q:  0.04491) (D:  0.412) (U: 0.17539) (Q+U:  0.22030) (V:  0.1318) 
0911 20:32:17.108207 140051065321216 ../../src/chess/uciloop.cc:218] << info string d4d5  (761 ) N:   20406 (+ 0) (P:  1.56%) (Q:  0.06677) (D:  0.396) (U: 0.15352) (Q+U:  0.22029) (V:  0.1287) 
0911 20:32:17.108216 140051065321216 ../../src/chess/uciloop.cc:218] << info string b2b4  (234 ) N:   21020 (+ 0) (P:  1.75%) (Q:  0.05360) (D:  0.392) (U: 0.16670) (Q+U:  0.22031) (V:  0.0962) 
0911 20:32:17.108224 140051065321216 ../../src/chess/uciloop.cc:218] << info string d1d2  (81  ) N:   24952 (+ 0) (P:  1.78%) (Q:  0.07717) (D:  0.403) (U: 0.14313) (Q+U:  0.22030) (V:  0.1211) 
0911 20:32:17.108233 140051065321216 ../../src/chess/uciloop.cc:218] << info string f2f3  (346 ) N:   25508 (+ 0) (P:  1.74%) (Q:  0.08339) (D:  0.363) (U: 0.13690) (Q+U:  0.22029) (V:  0.1770) 
0911 20:32:17.108241 140051065321216 ../../src/chess/uciloop.cc:218] << info string c1e3  (63  ) N:   44942 (+ 0) (P:  1.99%) (Q:  0.13183) (D:  0.400) (U: 0.08848) (Q+U:  0.22031) (V:  0.1627) 
0911 20:32:17.108262 140051065321216 ../../src/chess/uciloop.cc:218] << info string a2a4  (207 ) N:   48056 (+ 0) (P:  2.10%) (Q:  0.13286) (D:  0.410) (U: 0.08745) (Q+U:  0.22031) (V:  0.1554) 
0911 20:32:17.108271 140051065321216 ../../src/chess/uciloop.cc:218] << info string b1d2  (33  ) N:   50630 (+ 0) (P:  2.22%) (Q:  0.13251) (D:  0.406) (U: 0.08781) (Q+U:  0.22031) (V:  0.2007) 
0911 20:32:17.108280 140051065321216 ../../src/chess/uciloop.cc:218] << info string h2h4  (403 ) N:   62292 (+ 0) (P:  2.17%) (Q:  0.15049) (D:  0.395) (U: 0.06982) (Q+U:  0.22031) (V:  0.2065) 
0911 20:32:17.108288 140051065321216 ../../src/chess/uciloop.cc:218] << info string c1d2  (57  ) N:   64891 (+ 0) (P:  2.42%) (Q:  0.14566) (D:  0.407) (U: 0.07466) (Q+U:  0.22031) (V:  0.1802) 
0911 20:32:17.108296 140051065321216 ../../src/chess/uciloop.cc:218] << info string c2c3  (259 ) N:   68999 (+ 0) (P:  2.24%) (Q:  0.15515) (D:  0.418) (U: 0.06516) (Q+U:  0.22031) (V:  0.1830) 
0911 20:32:17.108304 140051065321216 ../../src/chess/uciloop.cc:218] << info string b2b3  (230 ) N:   77283 (+ 0) (P:  2.33%) (Q:  0.15994) (D:  0.415) (U: 0.06037) (Q+U:  0.22031) (V:  0.1804) 
0911 20:32:17.108314 140051065321216 ../../src/chess/uciloop.cc:218] << info string b1c3  (36  ) N:   82494 (+ 0) (P:  2.32%) (Q:  0.16390) (D:  0.400) (U: 0.05641) (Q+U:  0.22031) (V:  0.2372) 
0911 20:32:17.108323 140051065321216 ../../src/chess/uciloop.cc:218] << info string g1h3  (161 ) N:   85118 (+ 0) (P:  2.36%) (Q:  0.16487) (D:  0.396) (U: 0.05544) (Q+U:  0.22031) (V:  0.1824) 
0911 20:32:17.108332 140051065321216 ../../src/chess/uciloop.cc:218] << info string d1d3  (86  ) N:   89777 (+ 0) (P:  2.31%) (Q:  0.16876) (D:  0.369) (U: 0.05154) (Q+U:  0.22031) (V:  0.2438) 
0911 20:32:17.108341 140051065321216 ../../src/chess/uciloop.cc:218] << info string h2h3  (400 ) N:  122776 (+ 0) (P:  2.61%) (Q:  0.17766) (D:  0.405) (U: 0.04266) (Q+U:  0.22031) (V:  0.1957) 
0911 20:32:17.108350 140051065321216 ../../src/chess/uciloop.cc:218] << info string a2a3  (204 ) N:  124274 (+ 0) (P:  2.56%) (Q:  0.17911) (D:  0.411) (U: 0.04121) (Q+U:  0.22031) (V:  0.1847) 
0911 20:32:17.108366 140051065321216 ../../src/chess/uciloop.cc:218] << info string e2e3  (317 ) N:  167966 (+ 0) (P:  2.61%) (Q:  0.18916) (D:  0.408) (U: 0.03115) (Q+U:  0.22031) (V:  0.1820) 
0911 20:32:17.108374 140051065321216 ../../src/chess/uciloop.cc:218] << info string c1g5  (67  ) N:  307262 (+ 0) (P:  8.95%) (Q:  0.16194) (D:  0.379) (U: 0.05837) (Q+U:  0.22031) (V:  0.2063) 
0911 20:32:17.108382 140051065321216 ../../src/chess/uciloop.cc:218] << info string c1f4  (65  ) N: 1152437 (+ 0) (P:  8.51%) (Q:  0.20553) (D:  0.385) (U: 0.01478) (Q+U:  0.22031) (V:  0.2275) 
0911 20:32:17.108390 140051065321216 ../../src/chess/uciloop.cc:218] << info string g1f3  (159 ) N: 6811983 (+ 0) (P:  9.30%) (Q:  0.21644) (D:  0.435) (U: 0.00274) (Q+U:  0.21917) (V:  0.2218) 
0911 20:32:17.108398 140051065321216 ../../src/chess/uciloop.cc:218] << info string c2c4  (264 ) N: 13234059 (+ 0) (P: 11.33%) (Q:  0.21723) (D:  0.422) (U: 0.00172) (Q+U:  0.21894) (V:  0.2166) 
0911 20:32:17.108406 140051065321216 ../../src/chess/uciloop.cc:218] << info string g2g3  (374 ) N: 77012590 (+ 8) (P: 16.88%) (Q:  0.21988) (D:  0.414) (U: 0.00044) (Q+U:  0.22031) (V:  0.2371) 
0911 20:32:21.551563 140051073713920 ../../src/mcts/search.cc:384] Stopped search: Reached visits limit: 100000056>=100000000

You wanna tell me 0 centipawns for all the moves apart from 2. g3?
That's certainly unrealistic.
The point is to play 2. d5, as otherwise black will occupy that square with a pawn.

How many cores has your new config, Louis?

Man, that new layout sucks BIG TIME.
I can hardly make sense of what the engine is posting.
Is Stockfish better?
Why that rage for Leela, when Stock is better, elowise and otherwise?
En vogue?

Sorry for the confusing output I posted. It was hurriedly taken from a log file, and I failed to notice that it doesn't appear to contain the actual evaluations. They certainly were not all 0. My point was that a very strong engine doesn't consider 2.d5 to be anywhere near the top of the list.

20 cores, but Lc0 was running on a RTX 2080 Ti GPU.

[Lyudmil Tsvetkov]

Lol.
I posted 5-6 answers/posts. they were regularly submitted, and now they have disappeared!
So much effort for nothing.
I am out of this.

One day everybody will know 2. d5 is best.

PS. Did Harm delete all my posts because I complained from the forum outlay?
If anyone is unhappy with my answers, go search my (painfully written) detailed posts, that have suddenly disappeared.

[Spliffjiffer]

i can read everything u wrote Ljudmil (and i did read it)...Nazdrave

[zullil]

i can read everything u wrote Ljudmil (and i did read it)...Nazdrave

Me too.

[Ovyron]

I posted 5-6 answers/posts. they were regularly submitted, and now they have disappeared!

They're on page 2 of the thread! When you go back to page 1, they "disappear", as they're hidden from view because there's a maximum of what the forum can show per page! Once you go to page 2, they appear, and all the messages on page 1 "disappear", but they haven't been deleted! They're just hidden from view. You can hide the messages of other pages by moving to a page, and only the messages of that page will be shown, but the messages from other pages haven't been deleted! Just hidden. Your posts are still here.

Anyway, guys, I have busted the Dutch.

Really! It's not like I want to steal the spotlight from Lyudmil, but the actual move to play is...

2.Bg5!!

[d]rnbqkbnr/ppppp1pp/8/5pB1/3P4/8/PPP1PPPP/RN1QKBNR b KQkq -

There we go. I'm playing a corr game against witchesbutt here to try it out, and I already have some 0.60 advantage, though you might need to pump your Contempt to 24 to see it!

Anyway, I hold that:

2.d5 is not better than 2.Bg5

I wonder if Lyudmil (if he hasn't quit the forum) would be willing to play a corr game with me against his 2.d5. I'm so certain of the unsoundness of 2.d5 that I'm willing to play a new variant of chess I just invented called Score Odds Chess, in where, to beat me all Lyudmil needs to do is reaching a position where Stockfish announces an advantage of 0.20. If white can reach a position where that happens I lose. I already have 0.19 as an insurmountable score limit of my database, where if the advantage is already 0.20, black has done something wrong. Apparently after 1...f5 black has already done something wrong, and I know many people that could easily beat me in this variant, but not with the moves Lyudmil intends to play...

I don't expect Lyudmil to accept, he can either ignore this or have some pretexts to avoid playing a game, but if he does accept, refuting his entire book is tempting...