The Busted Dutch

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ouachita
Posts: 454
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Full name: Bobby Johnson

Re: The Busted Dutch

Post by ouachita » Tue Sep 17, 2019 11:56 pm

supersharp77 wrote:
Tue Sep 17, 2019 8:52 pm
ouachita wrote:
Mon Sep 16, 2019 1:35 pm
supersharp77 wrote:
Mon Sep 16, 2019 5:28 am
Ovyron wrote:
Sun Sep 15, 2019 12:19 am
zullil wrote:
Sat Sep 14, 2019 12:17 pm

If they want to use engines..use the playchess server then... :) :wink:
Who wants to play? 10 min. is the shortest game this old guy can play though. I'm ouachita at https://play.chessbase.com/en/
SIM, PhD, MBA, PE

ouachita
Posts: 454
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Location: Ritz-Carlton, NYC
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Re: The Busted Dutch

Post by ouachita » Tue Sep 17, 2019 11:58 pm

ouachita wrote:
Tue Sep 17, 2019 11:56 pm
supersharp77 wrote:
Tue Sep 17, 2019 8:52 pm
ouachita wrote:
Mon Sep 16, 2019 1:35 pm
supersharp77 wrote:
Mon Sep 16, 2019 5:28 am
Ovyron wrote:
Sun Sep 15, 2019 12:19 am
zullil wrote:
Sat Sep 14, 2019 12:17 pm
If they want to use engines..use the playchess server then... :) :wink:
Who wants to play me using engines? 10 min. is the shortest game this old guy can play though. I'm ouachita at https://play.chessbase.com/en/
SIM, PhD, MBA, PE

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Ovyron
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Re: The Busted Dutch

Post by Ovyron » Wed Sep 18, 2019 6:29 am

ouachita wrote:
Sun Sep 15, 2019 12:37 am
join chessbase and we should be able to find/friend each other or challenge each other
Yeah, I did that in 2016, so my account's name is Yntec (it's also weird to come back to a site and see that all my games have been wiped off their server. So I can check my games of FICS back to 2004, but my Playchess games are just gone? :shock: ).

I don't see a way to challenge people to correspondence time controls, though. We haven't discussed this, does some 30 Day and 2 day increment/move sound good?
Great spirits have always encountered violent opposition from mediocre minds.

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Ovyron
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Re: The Busted Dutch

Post by Ovyron » Wed Sep 18, 2019 6:39 am

zullil wrote:
Mon Sep 16, 2019 8:16 am
OK, Stockfish also chooses 9...O-O. So the position is now



I will watch for your move at the Rybka Forum, or you can also reply here.
I have played 10. dxc5 on there. I predict that unassisted Stockfish-dev will play Qxc5 here. I also predict that you'll see some negative evaluation (that is, Stockfish-dev will think it has the advantage as black) at some point. I finally predict that we'll see Stockfish deviate and play some dumb-looking moves like Be6 (with pawn still on e7) followed by back to the first row (B*8 where * stands for a letter) and then Be6 again, or some other nonsense. But we'll see...
Great spirits have always encountered violent opposition from mediocre minds.

zullil
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Re: The Busted Dutch

Post by zullil » Wed Sep 18, 2019 9:26 am

Ovyron wrote:
Wed Sep 18, 2019 6:39 am

I have played 10. dxc5 on there. I predict that unassisted Stockfish-dev will play Qxc5 here. I also predict that you'll see some negative evaluation (that is, Stockfish-dev will think it has the advantage as black) at some point. I finally predict that we'll see Stockfish deviate and play some dumb-looking moves like Be6 (with pawn still on e7) followed by back to the first row (B*8 where * stands for a letter) and then Be6 again, or some other nonsense. But we'll see...
Yes, Stockfish replies 10...Qxc5.



Stockfish's evaluation is 0.00, as it has been since the root position. Given your claim "I have no problems beating people that just let Stockfish reach high depth and play their move against me", I'm happy to stop this game if you can reach any position that my Stockfish considers clearly positive for White. Nothing but 0.00 so far, at every iteration of every search, to depths over 70. It will be interesting to see what you can find that Stockfish has not seen/understood.

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Ovyron
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Re: The Busted Dutch

Post by Ovyron » Wed Sep 18, 2019 10:04 am

zullil wrote:
Wed Sep 18, 2019 9:26 am
Given your claim "I have no problems beating people that just let Stockfish reach high depth and play their move against me"
Ah, but my claim was from the beginning of the game.

Here you just jump-started from a position played by someone with access to a bookline from no other than sarona (someone that could probably beat me mano a mano), followed very accurately by my opponent, which already proved beyond this level in our first game.

Your Stockfish-dev already stands above the shoulder of giants, so perhaps it'd be more useful to check at what point would it have deviated from white's play in a previous position (though we know it'd never dare to play the Dutch.) If this is black's best defense it's unlikely Stockfish-dev would have found it.
Great spirits have always encountered violent opposition from mediocre minds.

zullil
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Re: The Busted Dutch

Post by zullil » Wed Sep 18, 2019 11:52 am

Ovyron wrote:
Wed Sep 18, 2019 10:04 am
zullil wrote:
Wed Sep 18, 2019 9:26 am
Given your claim "I have no problems beating people that just let Stockfish reach high depth and play their move against me"
Ah, but my claim was from the beginning of the game.

Here you just jump-started from a position played by someone with access to a bookline from no other than sarona (someone that could probably beat me mano a mano), followed very accurately by my opponent, which already proved beyond this level in our first game.

Your Stockfish-dev already stands above the shoulder of giants, so perhaps it'd be more useful to check at what point would it have deviated from white's play in a previous position (though we know it'd never dare to play the Dutch.) If this is black's best defense it's unlikely Stockfish-dev would have found it.
OK, then I'm wasting my time and energy here. Will terminate the game when I next get access to the machine.

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Ovyron
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Re: The Busted Dutch

Post by Ovyron » Wed Sep 18, 2019 12:13 pm

Because setting up the engine and clicking a button so it analyzes a position requires SO MUCH time and energy :roll:
Great spirits have always encountered violent opposition from mediocre minds.

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Guenther
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Re: The Busted Dutch

Post by Guenther » Wed Sep 18, 2019 12:24 pm

zullil wrote:
Wed Sep 18, 2019 11:52 am
Ovyron wrote:
Wed Sep 18, 2019 10:04 am
bla...
OK, then I'm wasting my time and energy here. Will terminate the game when I next get access to the machine.
Did you expect something else, Louis?
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Ovyron
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Re: The Busted Dutch

Post by Ovyron » Wed Sep 18, 2019 12:56 pm

So here's an actual image that shows my data on this:

Image

For this variation, I have examined 14272 positions (all entered manually, no automation). For the positions after 10...Qxc5 I have only examined 159 positions.

So, if zullil can surpass my analysis by just examining TWO positions, then I'm a fool and I've wasted my life, because I could just have let the engine running in the background analyzing by itself while I was doing other things, checked what it spit, and copied and pasted it like a parrot.

Otherwise, unassisted Stockfish builds a pitiful tree of variations, and to refute its depth 70 all you need to do is go to the tail of its variation and show it much superior analysis. It loses 1 ply per half-move, so whatever Depth 70 shows at move 11, you can produce a better line by jumping to move 31 and analyzing at depth 31.

This is no secret, and I'm not doing anything outstanding, whoever is reading this, you can too refute unassisted Stockfish, and you can probably do it better than me, if you try.

At least, I'll claim I put more "time and energy" in these 14272 positions than zullil put in letting unassisted Stockfish reach high depth in 2 positions :roll:
Great spirits have always encountered violent opposition from mediocre minds.

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