"Fat fritz" stronger than Stockfish ?

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Look
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"Fat fritz" stronger than Stockfish ?

Post by Look » Tue Sep 24, 2019 6:15 pm

Hi,

What do you think about the claim that "Fat fritz" is stronger than Stockfish. Here is ChessBase article on this issue.

lkaufman
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Re: "Fat fritz" stronger than Stockfish ?

Post by lkaufman » Tue Sep 24, 2019 6:28 pm

Look wrote:
Tue Sep 24, 2019 6:15 pm
Hi,

What do you think about the claim that "Fat fritz" is stronger than Stockfish. Here is ChessBase article on this issue.
It's rather meaningless to compare it to Stockfish, it should be compared with Lc0, since they are related. Of course Lc0 on a good GPU is often superior to Stockfish, maybe even most of the time, but whether it is stronger can only be determined by match or at least rated play. I mean Lc0 might choose better moves 90% of the time (when they disagree), but if the other 10% are blunders it will be overall weaker. Same with Fat fritz.
Komodo rules!

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Re: "Fat fritz" stronger than Stockfish ?

Post by Robert Pope » Tue Sep 24, 2019 6:30 pm

Look wrote:
Tue Sep 24, 2019 6:15 pm
Hi,

What do you think about the claim that "Fat fritz" is stronger than Stockfish. Here is ChessBase article on this issue.
I don't see it claiming anywhere that Fat Fritz is stronger, just highlighting that it found a move Stockfish missed. Since that is one of Lc0's fortes, it's not surprising that Fat Fritz can, too.

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Re: "Fat fritz" stronger than Stockfish ?

Post by MikeB » Tue Sep 24, 2019 7:15 pm

Look wrote:
Tue Sep 24, 2019 6:15 pm
Hi,

What do you think about the claim that "Fat fritz" is stronger than Stockfish. Here is ChessBase article on this issue.
Why are you posting false information, there is no claim by Albert that his Fat Fritz is stronger than Stockfish. Two, that is not Albert's style, he has more class than that.

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Re: "Fat fritz" stronger than Stockfish ?

Post by AdminX » Tue Sep 24, 2019 7:26 pm



Leelenstein also finds 24. ... Qc4 in under a second.
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Henrik Dinesen
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Re: "Fat fritz" stronger than Stockfish ?

Post by Henrik Dinesen » Tue Sep 24, 2019 8:57 pm

MikeB wrote:
Tue Sep 24, 2019 7:15 pm
Look wrote:
Tue Sep 24, 2019 6:15 pm
Hi,

What do you think about the claim that "Fat fritz" is stronger than Stockfish. Here is ChessBase article on this issue.
Why are you posting false information, there is no claim by Albert that his Fat Fritz is stronger than Stockfish. Two, that is not Albert's style, he has more class than that.
Agreed.
Though, likely it wasn't a blow against Albert, but Chessbase.
Henrik

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Re: "Fat fritz" stronger than Stockfish ?

Post by zullil » Wed Sep 25, 2019 12:26 am

Stockfish-dev seems relatively unimpressed with 24...Qc4---and it has no trouble seeing the "spectacular key move" 27...Ba7 in that line. But I certainly haven't analyzed these lines.

info depth 43 seldepth 72 multipv 1 score cp 436 nodes 12193594804 nps 34813080 hashfull 922 tbhits 802594 time 350259 pv h7h5 b5c3 h5h4 g3g4 c1e1 b3d1 e1d2 d1b3 e8c8 b6c5 d2e1 b3d1 e1d1 c3d1 f6d7 b2b4 b7b6 c5e7 c8c2 h3g1 h4h3 g2h3 c2c1 d1e3 c1g1 e3d5 g1a1 e2e3 a1a4 f3f4 f7f6 h3g3 g8f7 g3f3 a4a2 h2h3 a2h2 f3g3 h2b2 g3f3 b6b5 f3e4 d7b6 e7c5 b6c4 d5c3 c4a3 c3d1 b2b3 h3h4 a3c4 g4g5 c4d2 e4d5 b3d3 g5f6 g7f6 d5c6 d2e4 c6b7 d3d1 b7b8 d1d3 b8b7 d3e3 b7c6 e3h3 c5b6 h3h4 c6b5

info depth 43 seldepth 73 multipv 2 score cp 268 nodes 12193594804 nps 34813080 hashfull 922 tbhits 802594 time 350259 pv c1c4 b3c4 d5c4 h3g5 f6d5 b6a5 b8a7 a5c3 e8a8 g5e4 f7f5 e4d6 a7b8 d6b7 a8a4 c3a5 g8f7 f3f4 a4a1 b5c3 f7e6 b7c5 e6d6 c5b7 d6c6 b7d8 c6d7 d8b7 d5c3 b7c5 d7c6 a5c3 g7g6 g2f3 b8d6 f3e3 a1h1 h2h4 d6c5 d4c5 c6c5 e3f3 c5b5 e2e4 b5c6 e4f5 g6f5 f3e2 c6d5 e2f3 h1d1 f3f2 d1d3 f2g2 d5c5 h4h5 c5b5 g2h3 b5a4

info depth 43 seldepth 68 multipv 3 score cp 240 nodes 12193594804 nps 34813080 hashfull 922 tbhits 802594 time 350259 pv c1c6 b6c5 f6d7 b3a3 h7h6 h3g1 e8e6 c5b4 g7g5 a3c3 g8g7 b2b3 c6c3 b5c3 d7f6 b4c5 b8c7 c3b5 c7d8 h2h4 b7b6 c5b4 e6c6 g3g4 g5h4 b5d6 c6c2 b4e1 c2b2 e1h4 b2b3 g1h3 b3b4 h3f4 b4a4 f4d3 a4a2 g2f1 b6b5 h4f6 g7f6 d6b5 d8b6 d3f4 a2a5 f4d5 f6e6 d5b6 a5b5 d4d5 e6e5 b6c4 e5d4 c4d6 b5b1 f1g2 b1b2 d6f7 b2e2 g2g3 e2d2 f7h6 d4c4 h6f5

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Re: "Fat fritz" stronger than Stockfish ?

Post by zullil » Wed Sep 25, 2019 10:09 am

zullil wrote:
Wed Sep 25, 2019 12:26 am
Stockfish-dev seems relatively unimpressed with 24...Qc4---and it has no trouble seeing the "spectacular key move" 27...Ba7 in that line. But I certainly haven't analyzed these lines.

info depth 43 seldepth 72 multipv 1 score cp 436 nodes 12193594804 nps 34813080 hashfull 922 tbhits 802594 time 350259 pv h7h5 b5c3 h5h4 g3g4 c1e1 b3d1 e1d2 d1b3 e8c8 b6c5 d2e1 b3d1 e1d1 c3d1 f6d7 b2b4 b7b6 c5e7 c8c2 h3g1 h4h3 g2h3 c2c1 d1e3 c1g1 e3d5 g1a1 e2e3 a1a4 f3f4 f7f6 h3g3 g8f7 g3f3 a4a2 h2h3 a2h2 f3g3 h2b2 g3f3 b6b5 f3e4 d7b6 e7c5 b6c4 d5c3 c4a3 c3d1 b2b3 h3h4 a3c4 g4g5 c4d2 e4d5 b3d3 g5f6 g7f6 d5c6 d2e4 c6b7 d3d1 b7b8 d1d3 b8b7 d3e3 b7c6 e3h3 c5b6 h3h4 c6b5

info depth 43 seldepth 73 multipv 2 score cp 268 nodes 12193594804 nps 34813080 hashfull 922 tbhits 802594 time 350259 pv c1c4 b3c4 d5c4 h3g5 f6d5 b6a5 b8a7 a5c3 e8a8 g5e4 f7f5 e4d6 a7b8 d6b7 a8a4 c3a5 g8f7 f3f4 a4a1 b5c3 f7e6 b7c5 e6d6 c5b7 d6c6 b7d8 c6d7 d8b7 d5c3 b7c5 d7c6 a5c3 g7g6 g2f3 b8d6 f3e3 a1h1 h2h4 d6c5 d4c5 c6c5 e3f3 c5b5 e2e4 b5c6 e4f5 g6f5 f3e2 c6d5 e2f3 h1d1 f3f2 d1d3 f2g2 d5c5 h4h5 c5b5 g2h3 b5a4

info depth 43 seldepth 68 multipv 3 score cp 240 nodes 12193594804 nps 34813080 hashfull 922 tbhits 802594 time 350259 pv c1c6 b6c5 f6d7 b3a3 h7h6 h3g1 e8e6 c5b4 g7g5 a3c3 g8g7 b2b3 c6c3 b5c3 d7f6 b4c5 b8c7 c3b5 c7d8 h2h4 b7b6 c5b4 e6c6 g3g4 g5h4 b5d6 c6c2 b4e1 c2b2 e1h4 b2b3 g1h3 b3b4 h3f4 b4a4 f4d3 a4a2 g2f1 b6b5 h4f6 g7f6 d6b5 d8b6 d3f4 a2a5 f4d5 f6e6 d5b6 a5b5 d4d5 e6e5 b6c4 e5d4 c4d6 b5b1 f1g2 b1b2 d6f7 b2e2 g2g3 e2d2 f7h6 d4c4 h6f5
Is 24...Qc4 really "better" than 24...h5? Or is this just another case of ... no need to write the rest of the sentence. :wink:

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info depth 60 seldepth 81 multipv 2 score cp 338 nodes 1280868886096 nps 36284337 hashfull 1000 tbhits 576045434 time 35300876 pv c1c4 b3c4 d5c4 h3g5 f6d5 b6a5 b8a7 a5e1 e8a8 a4a5 b7b6 a5b6 a7b6 f3f4 g7g6 h2h3 f7f5 g5f3 b6a5 e1a5 a8a5 b5d6 c4c3 b2c3 a5a2 f3g1 d5c3 d6c4 c3d5 h3h4 g8g7 c4e5 a2a4 e5d3 g7f6 g1h3 a4c4 h3g1 c4c2 g2f3 c2d2 d3e5 d2d4 e5d3 d4a4 g1h3 a4c4 d3e5 c4d4 e5d7 f6e7 d7e5 d4d1 e5c4 d1f1 f3g2 f1a1 g2f3 e7f7 c4e5 f7g8 e5d3 a1a2 d3e5 a2a4 e5d3 h7h6 d3e5 g8g7 h3g1 a4a2 g1h3 a2a3 h3g1 g7f6 e5d7 f6e6 d7e5 a3a1 g1h3

info depth 60 seldepth 101 multipv 3 score cp 303 nodes 1280868886096 nps 36284337 hashfull 1000 tbhits 576045434 time 35300876 pv c1c6 b6c5 f6d7 c5b4 d7b6 h3g1 h7h6 b5c3 b6c4 c3b5 g7g5 b4e1 g8g7 b5c3 b8d6 h2h3 e8a8 h3h4 g5h4 b3c2 h4g3 c2f5 c4b2 c3d5 d6b8 d5e3 c6e6 f5e4 e6e4 f3e4 a8a4 g1f3 b7b5 e4e5 b2c4 e3d5 a4a2 g2g3 a2e2 g3f4 b8a7 e1c3 a7b6 f3h4 b6d8 h4f5 g7g6 d5e7 d8e7 f5e7 g6h5 d4d5 e2f2 f4e4 h5g4 d5d6 f2f4 e4d3 f4f3 d3c2 c4b6 e7c6 b6d7 c2b3 g4f4 c6d4 f3d3 d4b5 d7e5 b3c2

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M ANSARI
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Re: "Fat fritz" stronger than Stockfish ?

Post by M ANSARI » Wed Sep 25, 2019 11:17 am

I think he was trying to point out that even with a weak laptop GPU, the NN engine was able to find a move that the AB engine with strong hardware did not see. The point being that when analyzing a game or a certain move, an NN engine might find moves that even the strongest AB can't,thus giving the chess player an extra dimension in checking out moves that would have otherwise been missed. I have no idea how you understood the article as being "Fat Fritz stronger than SF" !!!

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Re: "Fat fritz" stronger than Stockfish ?

Post by jp » Wed Sep 25, 2019 11:35 am

M ANSARI wrote:
Wed Sep 25, 2019 11:17 am
I think he was trying to point out that even with a weak laptop GPU, the NN engine was able to find a move that the AB engine with strong hardware did not see.
But that point isn't valid if the move it "finds" is weaker, as the posts above suggest. We've seen this issue before.

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