IN 100 games if SF reaches 51 in TCEC it should be stopped
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Chessqueen
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- Joined: Wed Sep 05, 2018 12:16 am
- Full name: Nancy M Pichardo
IN 100 games if SF reaches 51 in TCEC it should be stopped
I do not know if it was luck that AllieStein v0.5-dev_7b41f8c-n11 got a better score than LCO but AS did NOT do as good as LCO against Stockfish 19092522, probably next time around Alliestein with an update might be as strong as Stockfish, unless there is something better than RTX 2080 waiting around the corner. Anyway In 100 games if SF reaches 51 it should be stopped, or they will continue it anyway ? www.tcec-chess.com/
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Graham Banks
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Re: IN 100 games if SF reaches 51 in TCEC it should be stopped
Looks like a decisive match victory for Stockfish. That won't sit well with some. 
My email addresses:
gbanksnz at gmail.com
gbanksnz at yahoo.co.nz
gbanksnz at gmail.com
gbanksnz at yahoo.co.nz
Re: IN 100 games if SF reaches 51 in TCEC it should be stopped
AS could still win if SF has 3 crashes but it would be a hollow victory. If we recall, Stockfish had two crashes in the premier division but still finished in the top spot.
Looks like reports of the "end of an era" for AB have been greatly exaggerated.
Looks like reports of the "end of an era" for AB have been greatly exaggerated.
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Dann Corbit
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Re: IN 100 games if SF reaches 51 in TCEC it should be stopped
From TCEC 16 Rules and Information:Chessqueen wrote: ↑Fri Oct 11, 2019 10:16 pmI do not know if it was luck that AllieStein v0.5-dev_7b41f8c-n11 got a better score than LCO but AS did NOT do as good as LCO against Stockfish 19092522, probably next time around Alliestein with an update might be as strong as Stockfish, unless there is something better than RTX 2080 waiting around the corner. Anyway In 100 games if SF reaches 51 it should be stopped, or they will continue it anyway ? www.tcec-chess.com/
"Superfinal
The Superfinal consists of 100 games at TC 120+10, with 50 different openings, among them once the normal start position, so that each engine plays both black and white of the same opening position. The match will be presented with opening 1 used in games 1 and 2, then opening 2 used in games 3 and 4 etc.
If the match is theoretically won for one side before game 100, the match will still continue until all 100 games have been played."
SF has already won 51 games, and they are playing on, so the rules are being followed.
I like that, because the games produce really interesting data.
Taking ideas is not a vice, it is a virtue. We have another word for this. It is called learning.
But sharing ideas is an even greater virtue. We have another word for this. It is called teaching.
But sharing ideas is an even greater virtue. We have another word for this. It is called teaching.
Re: IN 100 games if SF reaches 51 in TCEC it should be stopped
SF has this position as White. +2.75!
Maybe it needs to consult Honey. 
AS has 0.08.
Re: IN 100 games if SF reaches 51 in TCEC it should be stopped
In case you were in doubt, simply look at the number of outright blunders made by AS. A good example is move 33. ... Qc6???
Then it compounds the mistake by playing 34. ... Nd6???
Until they figure out how to stop NN engines from making moves like this, there is little hope of a new era, just a few interesting games.
Regards,
Zenmastur
Only 2 defining forces have ever offered to die for you.....Jesus Christ and the American Soldier. One died for your soul, the other for your freedom.
Re: IN 100 games if SF reaches 51 in TCEC it should be stopped
I guess the questions are:
1.Does Leela play those moves? If not it's clear Leela should have gone to the final instead of Allie, which would indicate Allie is just better at beating weaker opposition.
2.Has this just been because of improvements by Stockfish? If so, NNs rapidly improved and eventually caught up and surpassed Stockfish's strength, but they plateaued* while Stockfish kept improving, so this would be THE REVIVAL OF AN ERA.
(*I reckon this is the first time in my life I use a word with 4 vowels in a row)
Great spirits have always encountered violent opposition from mediocre minds.
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DustyMonkey
- Posts: 57
- Joined: Wed Feb 19, 2014 9:11 pm
Re: IN 100 games if SF reaches 51 in TCEC it should be stopped
monte carlo tree search produces blunders by design
while the root move may be "well sampled" and avoid hanging pieces,
the 2nd ply is less well sampled,
the 3rd ply even less well sampled,
the 4th ply poorly sampled,
the 5th ply even more poorly sampled,
...
This is the core fact of monte carlo tree search. I know some folks will jump in trying to deny it, or excuse it, or hand wave the problem "away" ...
The best argument trying to defend monte carlo on the matter is that the blunders aren't shallow, but it ignores the obvious. The game is more than one move. Giving up a little bit on each move, with high probability, compounds, again and again, on every move through a game. You can say "on move 20 the odds of MCTS blundering is low!" ... but you cannot say "over all moves of a game, the odds of MCTS blundering is low!" .. its not factual. At all.
while the root move may be "well sampled" and avoid hanging pieces,
the 2nd ply is less well sampled,
the 3rd ply even less well sampled,
the 4th ply poorly sampled,
the 5th ply even more poorly sampled,
...
This is the core fact of monte carlo tree search. I know some folks will jump in trying to deny it, or excuse it, or hand wave the problem "away" ...
The best argument trying to defend monte carlo on the matter is that the blunders aren't shallow, but it ignores the obvious. The game is more than one move. Giving up a little bit on each move, with high probability, compounds, again and again, on every move through a game. You can say "on move 20 the odds of MCTS blundering is low!" ... but you cannot say "over all moves of a game, the odds of MCTS blundering is low!" .. its not factual. At all.
Re: IN 100 games if SF reaches 51 in TCEC it should be stopped
The fact that ANY top NN angine could produce two MEGA-BLUNDERS in a row is sufficient evidence that we are not now, nor were we in the recent past in a "new era". Their technology isn't mature enough yet!Ovyron wrote: ↑Sat Oct 12, 2019 12:59 pmI guess the questions are:
1.Does Leela play those moves? If not it's clear Leela should have gone to the final instead of Allie, which would indicate Allie is just better at beating weaker opposition.
2.Has this just been because of improvements by Stockfish? If so, NNs rapidly improved and eventually caught up and surpassed Stockfish's strength, but they plateaued* while Stockfish kept improving, so this would be THE REVIVAL OF AN ERA.
(*I reckon this is the first time in my life I use a word with 4 vowels in a row)
1.) I don't think what Leela would have done has any bearing on the subject. It came in third or fourth if I recall.
2.) SF hasn't made any great gains (just "normal" albeit slow progress) in playing strength in the recent past or so this site would have me believe.
https://nextchessmove.com/dev-builds
Regards,
Zenmastur
Only 2 defining forces have ever offered to die for you.....Jesus Christ and the American Soldier. One died for your soul, the other for your freedom.
Re: IN 100 games if SF reaches 51 in TCEC it should be stopped
Are you saying that Leela winning Season 15 was a fluke?
Great spirits have always encountered violent opposition from mediocre minds.