Nope. I didn't see any refutation for peter's Nd6 line which I have converted into a pgn game:
http://talkchess.com/forum3/viewtopic.p ... 10#p815433
That line looks like an endgame win for white.
Moderators: hgm, Rebel, chrisw
Nope. I didn't see any refutation for peter's Nd6 line which I have converted into a pgn game:
zullil wrote: ↑Sun Oct 13, 2019 6:04 pm Stockfish-dev has the following:
[pgn]
[FEN "1r3r2/4bpkp/1qb1p1p1/3pP1P1/p1pP1Q2/PpP2N1R/1Pn1B2P/3RB2K w - - 0 1"]
[Setup "1"]
1. Qf6+ Bxf6 2. gxf6+ Kg8 3. Ng5 Nxa3 4. Rxh7 Nb5 5. h4 Nd6 6. Bg3 Qd8 7. Rg7+
Kh8 8. Kg2 Ne8 9. Rxf7 Rxf7 10. Nxf7+ Kg8 11. Nxd8 Rxd8 12. h5 g5 13. Rf1 Nc7
14. f7+ Kg7 15. Be1 Rf8 16. Bd2 Rxf7 17. h6+ Kg8 18. Rxf7 Kxf7 19. Bh5+ Kg8 20.
Bg6 Be8 21. Bb1 Bh5 22. Bxg5 Ne8 23. Be7 Ng7 24. hxg7 Kxg7 25. Kf2 Kf7 26. Bc5
Bd1 27. Ke3 Bg4 28. Bb6 Bh5 29. Ba5 Bg4 30. Kd2 Bh5 31. Bd8 Bg4 32. Kc1 Be2 33.
Bc7 Bh5 34. Bb6 Bg4 35. Ba5 Bh5 36. Kd2 Bf3 37. Bc7 Bh5 38. Bb8 Bg4 39. Kc1 Kg7
40. Bd6 Kf7 41. Bb4 Bf3 42. Ba3 Kg7 43. Bd6 Kf7 44. Kd2 Bh5 45. Ba3 Kg7 46. Ke3
Kf7 47. Kf4 Be2 48. Bd6 Bd1 49. Ke3 Bg4 50. Bc5 Bh5 51. Ba3 Bd1 52. Kd2 Bh5 53.
Ke1 Bf3 54. Bc5 Bg4 55. Bd6 Bh5 56. Bb4 Bg4 57. Bc5 Bh5 58. Kf1 Bg4 59. Bd6 Bf3
60. Kf2 Bg4 61. Ba3 Bh5 62. Kg3 Kg7 63. Bd6 Bd1 64. Be7 Kf7 65. Ba3 Bh5 66. Kh2
Be2 67. Kg2 Bd3 68. Bxd3 cxd3 69. Kf2 { 1.23} [/pgn]
No, Mike, you missed Louis' fortress- line after 26...Nd6 (!) which I had to be shown by him too, my ...Nxd4 (?)- line at first glance was wrong too, thinking then it would hold. (As a matter of fact, I didn't really have one, I just made the same mistake I was smart- alecky against, trusting in an output- line with too little hardware- time and or Forward- Backward.)
On the other hand here1r3rk1/5p1R/1qb1pPp1/3pP1N1/p1pn3P/1pP5/1P2B3/3RB2K w - - 0 6
Stockfish-dev says:
+9.24 6. Rg7+ Kh8 7. cxd4 c3 8. Bxc3 Bb5 9. Rh7+ Kg8 10. Bg4 Qa6 11. Rg7+ Kh8 12. Rd2 a3 13. h5 a2 14. hxg6 a1=Q+ 15. Bd1 Qxd1+ 16. Rxd1 fxg6 17. Bb4 Bd3 18. Kg2 Bf1+ 19. Rxf1 Qe2+ 20. Rf2 Qh5 21. Rh7+ Qxh7 22. Nxh7 Kxh7 23. Bxf8 Rxf8 24. Kh3 Rc8 25. Rf3 Kg8 26. Kg4 Rc2 27. Rxb3 Rg2+ 28. Kf3 Rh2 29. Rb8+ Kf7 30. Rb7+ Kf8 31. Re7 Rh4 32. Ke3 g5 33. Rxe6 Rh3+ 34. Kd2 Rh4 35. Kd3 Rh3+ 36. Kc2 Re3 37. Kd2 Rf3 38. Re7 g4 39. Rg7 Ke8 40. Rxg4 Kd8 41. Ke2 Rf5 42. Rg8+ Kc7 43. Rg7+ Kc8 44. Ke3 (depth 53, 0:06:40)
thanks included in my DB now. missed that post of louis.peter wrote: ↑Tue Oct 15, 2019 8:22 amNo, Mike, you missed Louis' fortress- line after 26...Nxd6 (!) which I had to be shown by him too, my ...Nxd4 (?)- line at first glance was wrong too. (As a matter of fact, I didn't reall have one, I just made the same mistake I was smart- alecky against, trusting in an output- line with too little hardware- time and or Forward- Backward.
Here
http://talkchess.com/forum3/viewtopic.p ... 53#p815453
is the winning line after 26...Nxd4 (?)
On the other hand here1r3rk1/5p1R/1qb1pPp1/3pP1N1/p1pn3P/1pP5/1P2B3/3RB2K w - - 0 6
Stockfish-dev says:
+9.24 6. Rg7+ Kh8 7. cxd4 c3 8. Bxc3 Bb5 9. Rh7+ Kg8 10. Bg4 Qa6 11. Rg7+ Kh8 12. Rd2 a3 13. h5 a2 14. hxg6 a1=Q+ 15. Bd1 Qxd1+ 16. Rxd1 fxg6 17. Bb4 Bd3 18. Kg2 Bf1+ 19. Rxf1 Qe2+ 20. Rf2 Qh5 21. Rh7+ Qxh7 22. Nxh7 Kxh7 23. Bxf8 Rxf8 24. Kh3 Rc8 25. Rf3 Kg8 26. Kg4 Rc2 27. Rxb3 Rg2+ 28. Kf3 Rh2 29. Rb8+ Kf7 30. Rb7+ Kf8 31. Re7 Rh4 32. Ke3 g5 33. Rxe6 Rh3+ 34. Kd2 Rh4 35. Kd3 Rh3+ 36. Kc2 Re3 37. Kd2 Rf3 38. Re7 g4 39. Rg7 Ke8 40. Rxg4 Kd8 41. Ke2 Rf5 42. Rg8+ Kc7 43. Rg7+ Kc8 44. Ke3 (depth 53, 0:06:40)
http://talkchess.com/forum3/viewtopic.p ... 40#p815440
Louis showed that 26...Nd6 isn't winning, it leads to a fortress.
[pgn][Event ""]
[Site ""]
[Date ""]
[Round ""]
[White ""]
[Black ""]
[Result ""]
[FEN "1r3r2/4bpkp/1qb1p1p1/3pP1P1/p1pP1Q2/PpP2N1R/1Pn1B2P/3RB2K w - - 0 1"]
[Setup "1"]
1. Qf6+ Bxf6 2. gxf6+ Kg8 3. Ng5 Nxa3 4. Rxh7 Nb5 5. h4 Nd6 6. Bg3 Qd8 7. Rg7+
Kh8 8. Kg2 Ne8 9. Rxf7 Rxf7 10. Nxf7+ Kg8 11. Nxd8 Rxd8 12. h5 g5 13. Rf1 Nc7
14. f7+ Kg7 15. Be1 Rf8 16. Bd2 Rxf7 17. h6+ Kg8 18. Rxf7 Kxf7 19. Bh5+ Kg8 20.
Bg6 Be8 21. Bb1 Bh5 22. Bxg5 Ne8 23. Be7 Ng7 24. hxg7 Kxg7 25. Kf2 Kf7 26. Bc5
Bd1 27. Ke3 Bg4 28. Bb6 Bh5 29. Ba5 Bg4 30. Kd2 Bh5 31. Bd8 Bg4 32. Kc1 Be2 33.
Bc7 Bh5 34. Bb6 Bg4 35. Ba5 Bh5 36. Kd2 Bf3 37. Bc7 Bh5 38. Bb8 Bg4 39. Kc1 Kg7
40. Bd6 Kf7 41. Bb4 Bf3 42. Ba3 Kg7 43. Bd6 Kf7 44. Kd2 Bh5 45. Ba3 Kg7 46. Ke3
Kf7 47. Kf4 Be2 48. Bd6 Bd1 49. Ke3 Bg4 50. Bc5 Bh5 51. Ba3 Bd1 52. Kd2 Bh5 53.
Ke1 Bf3 54. Bc5 Bg4 55. Bd6 Bh5 56. Bb4 Bg4 57. Bc5 Bh5 58. Kf1 Bg4 59. Bd6 Bf3
60. Kf2 Bg4 61. Ba3 Bh5 62. Kg3 Kg7 63. Bd6 Bd1 64. Be7 Kf7 65. Ba3 Bh5 66. Kh2
Be2 67. Kg2 Bd3 68. Bxd3 cxd3 69. Kf2 { 1.23} [/pgn]
Both lines are to be reproduced by backwarding them with enough hardware- time, for the fortress after 26...Nd6 an engine with the fortress detection code from Joseph Ellis (Crystal or Honey X6 FD) is best, especially if you want to see the 0.00 early and keep it in hash backwarding to 26.th.
Yet if anybody has any more questions to the position, ask Louis. It was his game (the one of his SF- installation back in 2014 with Lyudmil) then and it's his thread now.
He brought up all the important lines and he can help best, if anybody is still in doubt here and there in one of these lines.
Can u give the pgn of all the winning lines? I am not getting the results as discussed. hence I will be analyzing deeply now.peter wrote: ↑Tue Oct 15, 2019 8:22 amNo, Mike, you missed Louis' fortress- line after 26...Nd6 (!) which I had to be shown by him too, my ...Nxd4 (?)- line at first glance was wrong too, thinking then it would hold. (As a matter of fact, I didn't really have one, I just made the same mistake I was smart- alecky against, trusting in an output- line with too little hardware- time and or Forward- Backward.)
Here
http://talkchess.com/forum3/viewtopic.p ... 53#p815453
is the winning line after 26...Nxd4 (?)
On the other hand here1r3rk1/5p1R/1qb1pPp1/3pP1N1/p1pn3P/1pP5/1P2B3/3RB2K w - - 0 6
Stockfish-dev says:
+9.24 6. Rg7+ Kh8 7. cxd4 c3 8. Bxc3 Bb5 9. Rh7+ Kg8 10. Bg4 Qa6 11. Rg7+ Kh8 12. Rd2 a3 13. h5 a2 14. hxg6 a1=Q+ 15. Bd1 Qxd1+ 16. Rxd1 fxg6 17. Bb4 Bd3 18. Kg2 Bf1+ 19. Rxf1 Qe2+ 20. Rf2 Qh5 21. Rh7+ Qxh7 22. Nxh7 Kxh7 23. Bxf8 Rxf8 24. Kh3 Rc8 25. Rf3 Kg8 26. Kg4 Rc2 27. Rxb3 Rg2+ 28. Kf3 Rh2 29. Rb8+ Kf7 30. Rb7+ Kf8 31. Re7 Rh4 32. Ke3 g5 33. Rxe6 Rh3+ 34. Kd2 Rh4 35. Kd3 Rh3+ 36. Kc2 Re3 37. Kd2 Rf3 38. Re7 g4 39. Rg7 Ke8 40. Rxg4 Kd8 41. Ke2 Rf5 42. Rg8+ Kc7 43. Rg7+ Kc8 44. Ke3 (depth 53, 0:06:40)
http://talkchess.com/forum3/viewtopic.p ... 40#p815440
Louis showed that 26...Nd6 isn't White winning, it leads to a fortress.
[pgn][Event ""]
[Site ""]
[Date ""]
[Round ""]
[White ""]
[Black ""]
[Result ""]
[FEN "1r3r2/4bpkp/1qb1p1p1/3pP1P1/p1pP1Q2/PpP2N1R/1Pn1B2P/3RB2K w - - 0 1"]
[Setup "1"]
1. Qf6+ Bxf6 2. gxf6+ Kg8 3. Ng5 Nxa3 4. Rxh7 Nb5 5. h4 Nd6 6. Bg3 Qd8 7. Rg7+
Kh8 8. Kg2 Ne8 9. Rxf7 Rxf7 10. Nxf7+ Kg8 11. Nxd8 Rxd8 12. h5 g5 13. Rf1 Nc7
14. f7+ Kg7 15. Be1 Rf8 16. Bd2 Rxf7 17. h6+ Kg8 18. Rxf7 Kxf7 19. Bh5+ Kg8 20.
Bg6 Be8 21. Bb1 Bh5 22. Bxg5 Ne8 23. Be7 Ng7 24. hxg7 Kxg7 25. Kf2 Kf7 26. Bc5
Bd1 27. Ke3 Bg4 28. Bb6 Bh5 29. Ba5 Bg4 30. Kd2 Bh5 31. Bd8 Bg4 32. Kc1 Be2 33.
Bc7 Bh5 34. Bb6 Bg4 35. Ba5 Bh5 36. Kd2 Bf3 37. Bc7 Bh5 38. Bb8 Bg4 39. Kc1 Kg7
40. Bd6 Kf7 41. Bb4 Bf3 42. Ba3 Kg7 43. Bd6 Kf7 44. Kd2 Bh5 45. Ba3 Kg7 46. Ke3
Kf7 47. Kf4 Be2 48. Bd6 Bd1 49. Ke3 Bg4 50. Bc5 Bh5 51. Ba3 Bd1 52. Kd2 Bh5 53.
Ke1 Bf3 54. Bc5 Bg4 55. Bd6 Bh5 56. Bb4 Bg4 57. Bc5 Bh5 58. Kf1 Bg4 59. Bd6 Bf3
60. Kf2 Bg4 61. Ba3 Bh5 62. Kg3 Kg7 63. Bd6 Bd1 64. Be7 Kf7 65. Ba3 Bh5 66. Kh2
Be2 67. Kg2 Bd3 68. Bxd3 cxd3 69. Kf2 { 1.23} [/pgn]
Both lines are to be reproduced by backwarding them with enough hardware- time, for the fortress after 26...Nd6 an engine with the fortress detection code from Joseph Ellis (Crystal or Honey X6 FD) is best, especially if you want to see the 0.00 early and keep it in hash backwarding to 26.th.
Yet if anybody has any more questions to the position, ask Louis. It was his game (the one of his SF- installation back in 2014 with Lyudmil) then and it's his thread now.
He brought up all the important lines and he can help best, if anybody is still in doubt here and there in one of these lines.
I don't have any pgn files. Others do.
Thanks for answering, Louis. But it was you, opening this can of worms again, you see?
Did you save key variations?Spliffjiffer wrote: ↑Mon Oct 14, 2019 10:08 pm interesting position, right?
i had a deep look over 2 weeks on these positions ... with the help of various engines (and it was a hard but fruitful analysis)...
It's not him in particular. People (and not just for this position) get excited about an engine playing a first move and then don't appear to care whether that's really correct, or whether the third move (which is the harder move to find here) is correct.Spliffjiffer wrote: ↑Tue Oct 15, 2019 11:08 pm hehe, but George seems not to be the most accurate analyzer imo (or i am the one who does it wrong)..he claims that after 1. Qf6+ Bxf6 2. gxf6+ Kg8 3. Ng5 h6 4. Rxh6 Ne3 5. Nf3 !! white is winning in all lines...did i miss sth??