1.g4 opening is losing?

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Hai
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Re: 1.g4 opening is losing?

Post by Hai » Wed Feb 05, 2020 8:02 pm

fastgm wrote:
Wed Feb 05, 2020 5:34 pm
Here is a game, Stockfish 11 vs Stockfish 11, default settings, every move till depth 50, 1.g4 d5

2.g5 is a blunder.
It's the third best move.
2. Bg2 is at least 0.15 better.

fastgm
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Re: 1.g4 opening is losing?

Post by fastgm » Wed Feb 05, 2020 8:37 pm

Here another game with 10 cores and 16 GB Hash, Stockfish 11 vs Stockfish 11, contempt=0, each move till depth 50


Hai
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Re: 1.g4 opening is losing?

Post by Hai » Wed Feb 05, 2020 9:44 pm

fastgm wrote:
Wed Feb 05, 2020 8:37 pm
Here another game with 10 cores and 16 GB Hash, Stockfish 11 vs Stockfish 11, contempt=0, each move till depth 50

2.e3 is the fourth best move.
2.Bg2 is at least 0.27 better for black.

zullil
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Re: 1.g4 opening is losing?

Post by zullil » Wed Feb 05, 2020 9:50 pm

Hai wrote:
Wed Feb 05, 2020 9:44 pm

2.e3 is the fourth best move.
2.Bg2 is at least 0.27 better for black.
It seems silly to me to assert that a certain move is best. According to what/whom?

My guess is that all these moves are equally good; they all draw with perfect play. What exactly does "best" even mean?

Alayan
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Re: 1.g4 opening is losing?

Post by Alayan » Wed Feb 05, 2020 9:51 pm

Hai wrote:
Wed Feb 05, 2020 9:44 pm
2.e3 is the fourth best move.
2.Bg2 is at least 0.27 better for black.
You don't know this.

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Graham Banks
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Re: 1.g4 opening is losing?

Post by Graham Banks » Wed Feb 05, 2020 9:53 pm

zullil wrote:
Wed Feb 05, 2020 9:50 pm
Hai wrote:
Wed Feb 05, 2020 9:44 pm

2.e3 is the fourth best move.
2.Bg2 is at least 0.27 better for black.
It seems silly to me to assert that a certain move is best. According to what/whom?

My guess is that all these moves are equally good; they all draw with perfect play. What exactly does "best" even mean?
1.g4 is a lost move for white in my opinion. No draw with perfect play.
gbanksnz at gmail.com

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Ovyron
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Re: 1.g4 opening is losing?

Post by Ovyron » Wed Feb 05, 2020 9:55 pm

You can make any 2nd move by white better than the others by just pounding the others' scores until they're worse.
Graham Banks wrote:
Wed Feb 05, 2020 9:53 pm
1.g4 is a lost move for white in my opinion. No draw with perfect play.
After 4 months of analyzing these positions I'm about to be converted to that opinion.

zullil
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Re: 1.g4 opening is losing?

Post by zullil » Wed Feb 05, 2020 10:38 pm

Graham Banks wrote:
Wed Feb 05, 2020 9:53 pm
zullil wrote:
Wed Feb 05, 2020 9:50 pm
Hai wrote:
Wed Feb 05, 2020 9:44 pm

2.e3 is the fourth best move.
2.Bg2 is at least 0.27 better for black.
It seems silly to me to assert that a certain move is best. According to what/whom?

My guess is that all these moves are equally good; they all draw with perfect play. What exactly does "best" even mean?
1.g4 is a lost move for white in my opinion. No draw with perfect play.
I don't think either of us will know for sure. At least, not in this life. :D

Spliffjiffer
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Re: 1.g4 opening is losing?

Post by Spliffjiffer » Thu Feb 06, 2020 12:09 am

every single seconds we are obsessed with the determinism of the evaluation of our days...is it so difficult to understand that a 200 elo more efficient partner will beat the devil out of you when u trust on an entity that is currently unbeatable ?...what is it about to be much better than you... does this make any sense to u noobs ??...are such deterministic people able to get a truth at all in our current world of explanations ?...get rdy for the new explanation imo,...determinism was ardy yesterday peers !
Wahrheiten sind Illusionen von denen wir aber vergessen haben dass sie welche sind.

mmt
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Re: 1.g4 opening is losing?

Post by mmt » Thu Feb 06, 2020 11:23 am

Too many possibilities to prove it but what could be feasible is to test all white responses within let's say 0.2 pawns off the main SF and LC0 line (more lines closer to the root) down to >3.0 eval at decent time controls. This would pretty strongly suggest that it's lost. You could start at just 0.1 and 2.0 and make it a distributed project. Same with some other opening lines. You could also try to get an actual estimate of the likelihood that 1. g4 is lost with perfect play but that's for another post.

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