Zenmastur vs Ovyron No it's not another GROB!

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Alayan
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Re: Zenmastur vs Ovyron No it's not another GROB!

Post by Alayan » Mon Mar 23, 2020 9:41 pm

zullil wrote:
Mon Mar 23, 2020 9:23 pm
My understanding was that White intended to refute your statement by defeating you.
Agreed.

A draw with white and the hardware advantage is a failure for Zenmastur. White is supposed to play for the win in this challenge, no amount of spin now to reframe a draw as a success will change this. Saying black should have played other moves to try for a win is pointless.

Sure, the draw margin in chess is very wide, which doesn't help, but it doesn't make it any less of a failure.

If the KGA was seen as so bad and having so forcing lines that black could play against white, then another opening should have been selected. There was no reason to go for a spanish or some other deeply analyzed mainline, instead something suboptimal but messy would have been a more worthy attempt.

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Ovyron
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Re: Zenmastur vs Ovyron No it's not another GROB!

Post by Ovyron » Mon Mar 23, 2020 9:50 pm

Thanks guys, I already feel like a winner, so I retract my statements about the game being a waste. As things stand it was a worthwhile use of my time :D

Zenmastur
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Re: Zenmastur vs Ovyron No it's not another GROB!

Post by Zenmastur » Tue Mar 24, 2020 1:31 am

Ovyron wrote:
Mon Mar 23, 2020 9:12 pm
And the only reason you'd do that would be if you can't beat me in a game. My analysis methods are good enough that I play at your level and that's why you can't beat me in a game (if your faster hardware helped you play better than me, you could have defeated me in a game.)
I never said you didn't know how to analyze.

I said your hardware is a hindrance to your play. There's a big difference!
Ovyron wrote:
Mon Mar 23, 2020 9:12 pm
From this side I showed how to nullify your hardware advantage, so if our hardware was swapped the result would have been the same, and I never wanted more than that 8-)
Your biggest problem is you rationalize EVERYTHING.
Ovyron wrote:
Mon Mar 23, 2020 9:12 pm
Best moves or not best moves you could never have reached an advantageous position against me, so you went for this.
Yes, I've seen your unprompted and repeated claims about your chess abilities. Your ego is clearly your worst enemy. It's funny that the better players I've met never mention how great their chess abilities are. It's almost like it's the last thing on their mind. In fact, most of them dismiss they abilities as nothing special.

1. e4 e5 2. f4 exf4 3. Nf3 d6 4. d4 g5 5. h4 g4 6. Ng1 Qf6 7. Nc3 Ne7 8. Nge2 Bh6 9. Qd2 Nbc6 10. Nb5 Kd8 11. d5 a6 12. Nbc3 Ne5 13. Nxf4 g3 14. Qe3 N7g6 15. Nce2 Nxf4 16. Nxf4 Ng6 17. Nh5 Bxe3 18. Nxf6 Bd4 19. Nh5 Bf2+ 20.Kd1 f5 21.Bg5+




Regards,

Zenmastur
Only 2 defining forces have ever offered to die for you.....Jesus Christ and the American Soldier. One died for your soul, the other for your freedom.

Zenmastur
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Re: Zenmastur vs Ovyron No it's not another GROB!

Post by Zenmastur » Tue Mar 24, 2020 1:37 am

zullil wrote:
Mon Mar 23, 2020 9:13 pm
Zenmastur wrote:
Mon Mar 23, 2020 8:15 pm
drewdrew wrote:
Mon Mar 23, 2020 7:59 pm
zullil wrote:
Mon Mar 23, 2020 7:22 pm
Zenmastur wrote:
Mon Mar 23, 2020 7:06 pm
Even until relatively recently he had the chance to enter a superior endgame to the one he's going to get. Assuming he even considered the move he either couldn't see deep enough or he had a lapse in judgement.
Regards,

Zenmastur
I assume you are referring to the "interesting" alternative to 16...Ng6.
FWIW, this is the only point in the last many many moves where lc0 in some of its runs was proposing an alternative to SF's line. Though its overall score seemed to be essentially the same as 16... Ng6: about -0.31
Did you look at any of the endgames that resulted from the alternate and then compare them to what results after 16. ... Ng6? I did. They looked really bad. I don't know if they're losing but I certainly didn't want to have to defend them.
I did not study any of the resulting endgames. By the way, are you using at least some of the 7-man endgame tables?
Yes, I have 7-man TB's.
Only 2 defining forces have ever offered to die for you.....Jesus Christ and the American Soldier. One died for your soul, the other for your freedom.

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Ovyron
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Re: Zenmastur vs Ovyron No it's not another GROB!

Post by Ovyron » Tue Mar 24, 2020 1:50 am

Well, I'm feeling great! I doubt I'd have felt better than this even if I defeated you from the black side, because I never expected to defeat you anyway. So I won the challenge.

Facts:

3...d6 wasn't as bad because it was leading to that endgame that was so good if black played some other 16th move (d6 redeemed)

16...Ng6 wasn't as bad because drewdrew on much faster hardware would have made the move as well (Ng6 redeemed)

Those were the only questionable moves, the rest were easy moves anybody with a toaster could have played.

So I played the perfect black game, nobody can take that away from me.

1. e4 e5 2. f4 exf4 3. Nf3 d6 4. d4 g5 5. h4 g4 6. Ng1 Qf6 7. Nc3 Ne7 8. Nge2 Bh6 9. Qd2 Nbc6 10. Nb5 Kd8 11. d5 a6 12. Nbc3 Ne5 13. Nxf4 g3 14. Qe3 N7g6 15. Nce2 Nxf4 16. Nxf4 Ng6 17. Nh5 Bxe3 18. Nxf6 Bd4 19. Nh5 Bf2+ 20. Kd1 f5 21. Bg5+ Ne7


Zenmastur
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Re: Zenmastur vs Ovyron No it's not another GROB!

Post by Zenmastur » Tue Mar 24, 2020 3:08 am

Ovyron wrote:
Tue Mar 24, 2020 1:50 am
Well, I'm feeling great! I doubt I'd have felt better than this even if I defeated you from the black side, because I never expected to defeat you anyway. So I won the challenge.

Facts:

3...d6 wasn't as bad because it was leading to that endgame that was so good if black played some other 16th move (d6 redeemed)

16...Ng6 wasn't as bad because drewdrew on much faster hardware would have made the move as well (Ng6 redeemed)
.
... snip snip ...
.
So I played the perfect black game, nobody can take that away from me.
The only thing this has any reasonable chance of proving is that you failed every logic course you ever attended. :shock: :shock: :shock:

1. e4 e5 2. f4 exf4 3. Nf3 d6 4. d4 g5 5. h4 g4 6. Ng1 Qf6 7. Nc3 Ne7 8. Nge2 Bh6 9. Qd2 Nbc6 10. Nb5 Kd8 11. d5 a6 12. Nbc3 Ne5 13. Nxf4 g3 14. Qe3 N7g6 15. Nce2 Nxf4 16. Nxf4 Ng6 17. Nh5 Bxe3 18. Nxf6 Bd4 19. Nh5 Bf2+ 20. Kd1 f5 21. Bg5+ Ne7 22.exf5

Only 2 defining forces have ever offered to die for you.....Jesus Christ and the American Soldier. One died for your soul, the other for your freedom.

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Ovyron
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Re: Zenmastur vs Ovyron No it's not another GROB!

Post by Ovyron » Tue Mar 24, 2020 10:05 am

Zenmastur wrote:
Tue Mar 24, 2020 1:31 am
It's funny that the better players I've met never mention how great their chess abilities are.
Do those better players play like dumbasses and then tell you how their opponents failed to punish them? You really need to hang out with different people :mrgreen:

1. e4 e5 2. f4 exf4 3. Nf3 d6 4. d4 g5 5. h4 g4 6. Ng1 Qf6 7. Nc3 Ne7 8. Nge2 Bh6 9. Qd2 Nbc6 10. Nb5 Kd8 11. d5 a6 12. Nbc3 Ne5 13. Nxf4 g3 14. Qe3 N7g6 15. Nce2 Nxf4 16. Nxf4 Ng6 17. Nh5 Bxe3 18. Nxf6 Bd4 19. Nh5 Bf2+ 20. Kd1 f5 21. Bg5+ Ne7 22. exf5 Bxf5


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Harvey Williamson
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Re: Zenmastur vs Ovyron No it's not another GROB!

Post by Harvey Williamson » Tue Mar 24, 2020 1:26 pm

This exact position was reached in a correspondence game in 2019. The result was a draw. Both players were around 2400elo.

zullil
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Re: Zenmastur vs Ovyron No it's not another GROB!

Post by zullil » Tue Mar 24, 2020 1:44 pm

Harvey Williamson wrote:
Tue Mar 24, 2020 1:26 pm
This exact position was reached in a correspondence game in 2019. The result was a draw. Both players were around 2400elo.
Not surprising, since the entire game since 3...d6 is essentially Stockfish (and Lc0) self-play at depth 60+. With the possible exception of 16...Ng6.

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Ovyron
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Re: Zenmastur vs Ovyron No it's not another GROB!

Post by Ovyron » Tue Mar 24, 2020 10:32 pm

Best moves are best moves.

I've never gone over depth 48 for this game, and when I did it it was because I forgot to stop the engine before going to sleep.

I'd still like to take back the comments about white's lousy play, because there's nothing better to try on the KGA. My comments about the choice of the KGA on the first place still remain, it's not an opening you play if you want to exploit someone's else weaknesses!

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