Zenmastur vs Ovyron No it's not another GROB II!

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Zenmastur
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Re: Zenmastur vs Ovyron No it's not another GROB II!

Post by Zenmastur » Tue May 19, 2020 11:40 am

Ovyron wrote:
Sat May 16, 2020 3:51 pm
Zenmastur wrote:
Fri May 15, 2020 10:43 pm
6.Qxd3
(played instantly without further analysis)

[SetUp "1"]
[FEN "4r3/5pk1/1q1r1p1p/1p1Pn2Q/1Pp4P/6P1/5PB1/R3R1K1 b - -"]

1... f5 2. Qd1 Rdd8 3. Re3 f4 4. gxf4 Nd3 5. Rxd3 cxd3 6. Qxd3 Qf6

1... f5 2. Qd1 Rdd8 3. Re3 f4 4. gxf4 Nd3 5. Rxd3 cxd3 6. Qxd3 Qf6 7.Rd1

Only 2 defining forces have ever offered to die for you.....Jesus Christ and the American Soldier. One died for your soul, the other for your freedom.

jp
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Re: Zenmastur vs Ovyron No it's not another GROB II!

Post by jp » Tue May 19, 2020 9:00 pm

Ovyron wrote:
Mon May 18, 2020 10:43 pm
jp wrote:
Mon May 18, 2020 9:54 pm
Which previous tests?
Beating mmt's defense of 1.g4 regardless of hardware difference and holding Zenmastur with ease when we started from the opening position.
But that ignores not just the mate-in-N test (fail) but also the endgame position test (fail).

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Ovyron
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Re: Zenmastur vs Ovyron No it's not another GROB II!

Post by Ovyron » Wed May 20, 2020 2:54 am

Zenmastur wrote:
Tue May 19, 2020 11:40 am
7.Rd1
[SetUp "1"]
[FEN "4r3/5pk1/1q1r1p1p/1p1Pn2Q/1Pp4P/6P1/5PB1/R3R1K1 b - -"]

1... f5 2. Qd1 Rdd8 3. Re3 f4 4. gxf4 Nd3 5. Rxd3 cxd3 6. Qxd3 Qf6 7. Rd1 Qxf4


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Ovyron
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Re: Zenmastur vs Ovyron No it's not another GROB II!

Post by Ovyron » Wed May 20, 2020 2:58 am

jp wrote:
Tue May 19, 2020 9:00 pm
But that ignores not just the mate-in-N test (fail) but also the endgame position test (fail).
I didn't fail any of those because no game was being played.

I found moves that mated in the mate-in-N position, and those moves would have been enough in a game.

I found the saving move in the endgame position after 20 minutes of analysis, and that would have been enough to save the position in a game (I gave the wrong answer after 15 minutes - that only shows I'd suck at this if I played my games at 15 minutes/move).

jp
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Re: Zenmastur vs Ovyron No it's not another GROB II!

Post by jp » Wed May 20, 2020 2:58 pm

Ovyron wrote:
Wed May 20, 2020 2:58 am
I didn't fail any of those because no game was being played.
"Test" does not mean "game". You took on both tests and failed both. (But I'd need convincing that the mate-in-N test is a good test, as I've said many times before.)

You can't argue that you'd have passed if you'd spent a bit longer. You had the choice of whether to spend longer or not. There's no one telling you how much time you need to spend, either in a test or in a CC game. You have to decide that yourself.

zullil
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Re: Zenmastur vs Ovyron No it's not another GROB II!

Post by zullil » Wed May 20, 2020 3:03 pm

jp wrote:
Wed May 20, 2020 2:58 pm
Ovyron wrote:
Wed May 20, 2020 2:58 am
I didn't fail any of those because no game was being played.
"Test" does not mean "game". You took on both tests and failed both. (But I'd need convincing that the mate-in-N test is a good test, as I've said many times before.)
I started this with "As far as I know, he has passed all the previous tests, so I'm actually rooting for him."

Here I intended "tests" to refer to "games", since what is currently in progress is a game. (And also, I think, a nice test.)

jp
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Re: Zenmastur vs Ovyron No it's not another GROB II!

Post by jp » Wed May 20, 2020 3:10 pm

Okay. You are in generous mood. :wink:

We're also in the mildly odd position that you were convinced of the suitability of the mate-in-N test, while I am not, but you are the one not wanting to hang that on Ovyron.

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Ovyron
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Re: Zenmastur vs Ovyron No it's not another GROB II!

Post by Ovyron » Wed May 20, 2020 11:13 pm

jp wrote:
Wed May 20, 2020 2:58 pm
You took on both tests and failed both.
Well, since you seem to enjoy a lot seeing me fail, here's a treat. From the Start Your Engines Challenge, Week 3, Problem 4, the "anti-Ovyron" test:

[Event "Plaskett's Puzzle White to win"]
[Date "2018.02.20"]
[Round "4"]
[Result "1-0"]
[SetUp "1"]
[FEN "8/3P3k/n2K3p/2p3n1/1b4N1/2p1p1P1/8/3B4 w - -"]

1-0



Couldn't find the winning move to save my life (ironically, I'd have still played the winning move, by luck, but for the challenge it was required that I found the win, which I found impossible.) All my methodologies failed, hope you enjoy that :)

Frankly, I've never cared about failing or succeeding in these, I care about what's the truth, sometimes it can't be found alone. I'm more happy losing 1.g4 against Harvey than I'd be if I drew that but it turned out 1.g4 was lost (but Harvey failed to win it). It's more important to find the truth than to see who loses what.

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Re: Zenmastur vs Ovyron No it's not another GROB II!

Post by Uri Blass » Thu May 21, 2020 2:06 am

Ovyron wrote:
Wed May 20, 2020 11:13 pm
jp wrote:
Wed May 20, 2020 2:58 pm
You took on both tests and failed both.
Well, since you seem to enjoy a lot seeing me fail, here's a treat. From the Start Your Engines Challenge, Week 3, Problem 4, the "anti-Ovyron" test:

[Event "Plaskett's Puzzle White to win"]
[Date "2018.02.20"]
[Round "4"]
[Result "1-0"]
[SetUp "1"]
[FEN "8/3P3k/n2K3p/2p3n1/1b4N1/2p1p1P1/8/3B4 w - -"]

1-0



Couldn't find the winning move to save my life (ironically, I'd have still played the winning move, by luck, but for the challenge it was required that I found the win, which I found impossible.) All my methodologies failed, hope you enjoy that :)

Frankly, I've never cared about failing or succeeding in these, I care about what's the truth, sometimes it can't be found alone. I'm more happy losing 1.g4 against Harvey than I'd be if I drew that but it turned out 1.g4 was lost (but Harvey failed to win it). It's more important to find the truth than to see who loses what.
I am surprised to read that you failed the Plaskett's puzzle that is an old puzzle because even a very old chess engine from 2004 can solve it

FEN: 8/3P3k/n2K3p/2p3n1/1b4N1/2p1p1P1/8/3B4 w - - 0 1

Gothmog_10b10:
1/3 00:00 116 116k +2.31 1.Bc2+ Kg7 2.d8Q
2/5 00:00 1k 573k -0.22 1.Nf6+ Kg6 2.Bc2+ Kxf6 3.d8Q+ Kg7
3/7 00:00 2k 477k +0.59 1.Nf6+ Kg6 2.Bh5+ Kxf6 3.d8Q+ Kg7 4.Qe7+
4/12 00:00 6k 462k +1.31 1.Nf6+ Kg6 2.Bh5+ Kf5 3.d8Q Ne4+ 4.Nxe4 Kxe4
5/15 00:00 26k 712k 0.00 1.Nf6+ Kg7 2.Nh5+ Kg6 3.Nf4+ Kg7 4.Nh5+
6/21+ 00:00 31k 658k 0.00 1.Nf6+ Kg7 2.Nh5+ Kg6 3.Nf4+ Kg7 4.Nh5+
6/21 00:00 42k 622k 0.00 1.Nf6+ Kg7 2.Nh5+ Kg6 3.Nf4+ Kg7 4.Nh5+
7/22- 00:00 91k 691k -0.04 1.Nf6+ Kg7 2.Nh5+ Kg6 3.Nf4+ Kf5 4.Bc2+ Kg4 5.Bd1+ Kxg3 6.Nh5+ Kh2 7.d8Q Nf7+
7/23 00:00 294k 759k -2.16 1.Nf6+ Kg7 2.Nh5+ Kg6 3.Nf4+ Kf5 4.Bc2+ Kg4 5.Bd1+ Kxg3 6.Ne2+ Kf2 7.d8R
8/23+ 00:00 382k 758k -2.16 1.Nxe3 Ba5 2.Ke7 Nb4 3.g4
8/23 00:00 467k 762k -2.07 1.Nxe3 Ba5 2.Ke7 Nb4 3.g4 Nc6+ 4.Kd6 Nd8 5.Bc2+ Kg7 6.Kxc5
9/25- 00:01 816k 760k -2.10 1.Nxe3 Ba5 2.Ke7 Nb4 3.g4 Kg7
9/25 00:01 914k 752k -2.13 1.Nxe3 Ba5 2.Ke7 Nb4 3.Ba4 Ne4 4.g4
10/25+ 00:01 1,182k 760k -2.13 1.d8Q Nf7+ 2.Ke7 Nxd8 3.Kxd8 Ba5+ 4.Kd7 Bc7 5.Nxe3 Bxg3 6.Bc2+ Kg7 7.Nf5+
10/30 00:03 2,504k 766k -2.10 1.d8Q Nf7+ 2.Ke7 Nxd8 3.Kxd8 e2 4.Bxe2 Ba5+ 5.Kd7 Nb4 6.Ne5 c2 7.Nd3 Na2
11/36- 00:05 4,303k 769k -2.13 1.d8Q Nf7+ 2.Ke7 Nxd8 3.Kxd8 e2 4.Bxe2 Ba5+ 5.Kd7 Nb4 6.Ne5 c2 7.Nd3 Na2
11/36+ 00:06 5,173k 779k -2.19 1.Nxe3 Ba5 2.Ke7 Nb4 3.Ba4 Kg7
11/36 00:07 5,518k 786k -2.19 1.Nxe3 Ba5 2.Ke7 Nb4 3.Ba4 Kg7
12/36+ 00:11 8,758k 790k -2.19 1.Nf6+ Kg7 2.Nh5+ Kg6 3.Bc2+ Kxh5 4.d8Q Nf7+ 5.Ke6 Nxd8+ 6.Kf5 e2 7.Be4
12/42 00:20 15,724k 768k 0.00 1.Nf6+ Kg7 2.Nh5+ Kg6 3.Bc2+ Kxh5 4.d8Q Kg4 5.Qf6 Kxg3 6.Qe5+ Kf2 7.Qh2+ Ke1 8.Qh1+ Kf2 9.Qh2+
13/45+ 00:22 17,172k 763k 0.00 1.Nf6+ Kg7 2.Nh5+ Kg6 3.Bc2+ Kxh5 4.d8Q Kg4 5.Qf6 Kxg3 6.Qe5+ Kf2 7.Qh2+ Ke1 8.Qh1+ Kf2 9.Qh2+
13/45 00:35 26,051k 734k +0.25 1.Nf6+ Kg7 2.Nh5+ Kg6 3.Bc2+ Kxh5 4.d8Q Kg4 5.Kc6 e2 6.Qe8 Nb8+ 7.Kd5 Kf3 8.Bd3 Kxg3 9.Qe5+ Kh4 10.Qh2+ Nh3 11.Qxe2
14/52+ 00:41 30,602k 731k +0.25 1.Nf6+ Kg7 2.Nh5+ Kg6 3.Bc2+ Kxh5 4.d8Q Kg4 5.Kc6 e2 6.Qe8 Nb8+ 7.Kd5 Kf3 8.Bd3 Kxg3 9.Qe5+ Kh4 10.Qh2+ Nh3 11.Qxe2
14/52 00:58 42,900k 739k +0.37 1.Nf6+ Kg7 2.Nh5+ Kg6 3.Bc2+ Kxh5 4.d8Q Kg4 5.Qf6 Kxg3 6.Qe5+ Kf2 7.Qf4+ Ke2 8.Qc4+ Ke1 9.Qxa6 e2 10.Qc4 Kf1 11.Qf4+ Kg2
15/52+ 01:14 54,506k 735k +0.37 1.Nf6+ Kg7 2.Nh5+ Kg6 3.Bc2+ Kxh5 4.d8Q Kg4 5.Qf6 Kxg3 6.Qe5+ Kf2 7.Qf4+ Ke2 8.Qc4+ Ke1 9.Qxa6 e2 10.Qc4 Kf1 11.Qf4+ Kg2 12.Qh4
15/58 02:41 119,010k 735k +0.62 1.Nf6+ Kg7 2.Nh5+ Kg6 3.Bc2+ Kxh5 4.d8Q Kg4 5.Kc6 Kxg3 6.Qd6+ Kg2 7.Qxh6 Nf3 8.Qxe3 Nd4+ 9.Kd5 Nxc2 10.Qe2+
16/58+ 03:28 149,874k 720k +0.62 1.Nf6+ Kg7 2.Nh5+ Kg6 3.Bc2+ Kxh5 4.d8Q Kg4 5.Kc6 Kxg3 6.Qd6+ Kg2 7.Qxh6 Nf3 8.Qxe3 Nd4+ 9.Kd5 Nxc2 10.Qe2+
16/73 07:25 311,883k 700k +1.03 1.Nf6+ Kg7 2.Nh5+ Kg6 3.Bc2+ Kxh5 4.d8Q Kg4 5.Kc6 e2 6.Qe8 Nb8+ 7.Kc7 Na6+ 8.Kb6 Kf3 9.Bd3 c4 10.Qxe2+ Kxg3 11.Qe5+ Kf2 12.Qd4+ Kg3 13.Qxc4



Even without engines you could solve it simply by searching with google for the fen and getting
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plaskett%27s_Puzzle

I could expect you to fail some new problem that somebody comosed when searching with google is not going to help you and not some old problem that many years ago people made engines to solve it.

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Ovyron
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Re: Zenmastur vs Ovyron No it's not another GROB II!

Post by Ovyron » Thu May 21, 2020 3:17 am

Uri Blass wrote:
Thu May 21, 2020 2:06 am
Even without engines you could solve it simply by searching with google for the fen
That's cheating.

It's like saying "you could beat Zenmastur by contacting someone with big hardware that sees how 1...f5 wins and just ask them to relay you the moves." Sure I could! I know people, that'd be no problem.

But what would be the point?

Presumably I could have solved this test by just downloading all the engines from the CCRL, and try them one by one for one minute until I found one that got it (I just need to get to Gothmog.) But I'd not have done that *in a game*. The point is that I have systems that I use on games and that none of them worked for this. In a game I wouldn't know white is winning and I need to find the winning move, so I'd never do that, so my failure stands.

I already admitted on the post I linked to for that thread, that I'd have resigned that position I was winning if it was a game. In other words, anyone could have made me play into a position like that because I'd have wrongly thought I (as black) was winning it, and defeated me.

Since apparently jp has been waiting for a position that cracks me like this one, I just brought this from the past to save his time. It already happened. It's done.
Your beliefs create your reality, so be careful what you wish for.

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