Komodo 14 released.

Discussion of anything and everything relating to chess playing software and machines.

Moderators: bob, hgm, Harvey Williamson

Forum rules
This textbox is used to restore diagrams posted with the [d] tag before the upgrade.
Post Reply
Alayan
Posts: 319
Joined: Tue Nov 19, 2019 7:48 pm
Full name: Alayan Feh

Re: Komodo 14 released.

Post by Alayan » Sat May 16, 2020 12:10 am

This is to be expected. Take a position where the best move is to accept a 3-fold. Regular K will accept it and take the draw. Komodo Armageddon will score the 3-fold as extremely bad, and rather go for a worse position that it has a much higher likelihood of losing than winning. This is optimal from an Armageddon scoring perspective, but extremely bad from normal scoring.

Taking the regular score of an armageddon match, or the armageddon score of a regular match, produce misleading data.

This observation also means that, with engine that are made aware of Armageddon, awarding more points for black wins completely breaks the point of Armageddon, as white has then no incentive to play riskier than in regular chess.

Juan P. Naar
Posts: 8
Joined: Fri May 15, 2020 1:55 pm
Full name: Juan Pablo Naar

Re: Komodo 14 released.

Post by Juan P. Naar » Sat May 16, 2020 3:36 am

pohl4711 wrote:
Wed May 13, 2020 1:54 pm
the_real_greco wrote:
Wed May 13, 2020 4:49 am
Oh my gosh. The CCC needs to use that Armageddon mode.

What other engines have it?
None, as far as I know. But with my new released NBSC Advanced Armageddon openings and scoring system, all engines can play Armageddon (without knowing, that they are doing so). And the statistical quality of the results is just overwhelming.

Learn more on my website:
https://www.sp-cc.de/nbsc-armageddon-openings.htm

Or download the complete NBSC-Armageddon package (opening-files (pgn and epd), books (for FritzGUI, Arena and polyglot) and Advanced-Armageddon rescoring tools) just right here:
https://www.sp-cc.de/files/nbsc_advanced_armageddon.zip

Idea of NBSC Armageddon by Larry Kaufman (Komodo-team).
Advanced scoring idea and all work (and testings) done by me (Stefan Pohl, SPCC).
Hello! Would it be possible for you to port it to OBK format (Chessmaster)? Would love to try it there!

-JN

pohl4711
Posts: 1296
Joined: Sat Sep 03, 2011 5:25 am
Location: Berlin, Germany
Contact:

Re: Komodo 14 released.

Post by pohl4711 » Sat May 16, 2020 9:48 am

Juan P. Naar wrote:
Sat May 16, 2020 3:36 am
pohl4711 wrote:
Wed May 13, 2020 1:54 pm
the_real_greco wrote:
Wed May 13, 2020 4:49 am
Oh my gosh. The CCC needs to use that Armageddon mode.

What other engines have it?
None, as far as I know. But with my new released NBSC Advanced Armageddon openings and scoring system, all engines can play Armageddon (without knowing, that they are doing so). And the statistical quality of the results is just overwhelming.

Learn more on my website:
https://www.sp-cc.de/nbsc-armageddon-openings.htm

Or download the complete NBSC-Armageddon package (opening-files (pgn and epd), books (for FritzGUI, Arena and polyglot) and Advanced-Armageddon rescoring tools) just right here:
https://www.sp-cc.de/files/nbsc_advanced_armageddon.zip

Idea of NBSC Armageddon by Larry Kaufman (Komodo-team).
Advanced scoring idea and all work (and testings) done by me (Stefan Pohl, SPCC).
Hello! Would it be possible for you to port it to OBK format (Chessmaster)? Would love to try it there!

-JN
I use this Book converter tool to make the polyglot-books out of the Arena-book. It should also convert the Arena-book of my NBSC-Armageddon lines, which is in my NBSC-dowload-package (NBSC_30k_5mvs.abk), in the OBK-format.

https://goneill.co.nz/chess.php

(scroll down a little bit to:
"Opening book conversion (OBK, ABK, BIN)
The opening book editor in Chessmaster is very good but it only saves files in its own OBK format. These programs allow you to convert opening book files between Chessmaster OBK, Arena ABK and Polyglot BIN formats for use in other programs. During the conversion you can also output PGN and TXT versions of the files.")

Cornfed
Posts: 42
Joined: Sun Apr 26, 2020 9:40 pm
Full name: Brian D. Smith

Re: Komodo 14 released.

Post by Cornfed » Sat May 16, 2020 4:14 pm

Alayan wrote:
Sat May 16, 2020 12:10 am
This is to be expected. Take a position where the best move is to accept a 3-fold. Regular K will accept it and take the draw. Komodo Armageddon will score the 3-fold as extremely bad, and rather go for a worse position that it has a much higher likelihood of losing than winning. This is optimal from an Armageddon scoring perspective, but extremely bad from normal scoring.

Taking the regular score of an armageddon match, or the armageddon score of a regular match, produce misleading data.

This observation also means that, with engine that are made aware of Armageddon, awarding more points for black wins completely breaks the point of Armageddon, as white has then no incentive to play riskier than in regular chess.
That...actually kind of makes sense.

Armageddon strikes me as a bit of a gimmick in general to force a result in a single game. Chess at the higher levels is closer to a draw. Armageddon goes too far.

We are talking about blitz time controls at this point anyway, so simply let the normal 1,0,1/2 carry the day while letting time be the decisive factor: Give Black a slight time edge and progressively lower the time for each side after the first game (if it is not decisive) until a result occurs. Less time = more likelihood of errors and thus a quick decision.

That's normal Human chess where people have various strenghts/weaknesses and can pick the opening/defense according to their opponent or their situation.

Computer chess though, perhaps you need a gimmick if your engine of choice already calculates slower and thus 'plays worse' than its opponent the faster the time control. You would compound its weakness so you would naturally prefer and even promote something like armageddon. :wink:

mbabigian
Posts: 167
Joined: Tue Oct 15, 2013 12:34 am
Location: US
Full name: Mike Babigian

Re: Komodo 14 released.

Post by mbabigian » Sun May 17, 2020 12:42 am

Larry/Mark, is Armageddon active in infinite analysis? Can it be?

Thanks in advance,
Mike
“Censorship is telling a man he can't have a steak just because a baby can't chew it.” ― Mark Twain

lkaufman
Posts: 4280
Joined: Sun Jan 10, 2010 5:15 am
Location: Maryland USA
Contact:

Re: Komodo 14 released.

Post by lkaufman » Sun May 17, 2020 1:26 am

It is active in infinite mode. Whether the Contempt adjustment is applied properly when you switch sides in infinite mode has to be checked out, it might even be GUI-dependent. You can always adjust Contempt yourself if needed.
Komodo rules!

cc2150dx
Posts: 199
Joined: Sat Nov 30, 2013 8:51 am
Location: Canada

Re: Komodo 14 released.

Post by cc2150dx » Sun May 17, 2020 6:14 pm

mbabigian wrote:
Sun May 17, 2020 12:42 am
Larry/Mark, is Armageddon active in infinite analysis? Can it be?

Thanks in advance,
Mike
In addition to what Larry said. Some more information here: viewtopic.php?f=2&t=73949&p=843793#p843793
Komodo tester

Jhoravi
Posts: 256
Joined: Wed May 08, 2013 4:49 am

Re: Komodo 14 released.

Post by Jhoravi » Tue May 19, 2020 7:14 am

Is there a mode in Komodo to handle piece Odds better?

lkaufman
Posts: 4280
Joined: Sun Jan 10, 2010 5:15 am
Location: Maryland USA
Contact:

Re: Komodo 14 released.

Post by lkaufman » Tue May 19, 2020 2:52 pm

Jhoravi wrote:
Tue May 19, 2020 7:14 am
Is there a mode in Komodo to handle piece Odds better?
There's no mode for that, but setting Contempt to about half of the absolute value of the initial evaluation of the handicap position helps significantly. Whether MCTS mode helps or not in handicap play is not quite clear, today we'll learn more about that as we did not use MCTS vs Lenderman yesterday but will today.
Komodo rules!

Lion
Posts: 521
Joined: Fri Mar 31, 2006 11:26 am
Location: Switzerland

Re: Komodo 14 released.

Post by Lion » Wed May 27, 2020 12:56 pm

@ Larry

Just purchased K14....
I was wondering if the MC version running around 4 kn/s is correct or is it because I am using my CPU (AMD Threadripper 1950x) instead of my GPU (2080Ti) ?

Thanks for the engines!

rgds

Post Reply